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ran my hemi hard today, she did NOT like it

PowerJrod

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My understanding is ethanol increases octane and has less energy. Not sure what you mean by more power and less MPG.



"Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.3"
So this is what I thought until I just read a recent article on Ethanol vs non ethanol (MarcNelson Oil company). So Ethanol does help the gas burn hotter but in no way does it increase octane rating. In fact ...it actually lowers it slightly. This is why people say running higher octane improves some people's engine performance and/or gas mileage.
Also...turns out the only negative with Ethanol Free gas is that it puts out more emissions. Average E-Free octane is 90. Interesting stuff. Will definitely try it out next time I'm near the Maverick station again.
 

Jako

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So this is what I thought until I just read a recent article on Ethanol vs non ethanol (MarcNelson Oil company). So Ethanol does help the gas burn hotter but in no way does it increase octane rating. In fact ...it actually lowers it slightly. This is why people say running higher octane improves some people's engine performance and/or gas mileage.
Also...turns out the only negative with Ethanol Free gas is that it puts out more emissions. Average E-Free octane is 90. Interesting stuff. Will definitely try it out next time I'm near the Maverick station again.
"In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane."
from:
 

Nails

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It all comes down to higher flash point with more fuel added and some crazy timing advance available.

Why many in the fun game run e85+ cause they are boosted of some form. Boosted hot kills timing, e85+ cures that, and then some. It’s not a n/a stock mod
 

PowerJrod

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"In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane."
from:
Ummm...there's a couple of contradictory statements In that article that don't exactly make sense ..and the math doesn't add up. If E is 113 , how does 85% (E85) equal 108??? Think I'll take that article with a grain of salt. This article makes a little more sense...
 

Jako

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Ummm...there's a couple of contradictory statements In that article that don't exactly make sense ..and the math doesn't add up. If E is 113 , how does 85% (E85) equal 108??? Think I'll take that article with a grain of salt. This article makes a little more sense...
E85
ethanol at 113X85=9605
gas at 85X15=1275
9605+1275=10880
85+15=100
10880/100=108.80

E10
ethanol at 113X10=1130
gas at 85X90=7650
1130+7650=8780
10+90=100
8780/100=87.80

I don't disagree with anything in the article. I would use regular gas if I could and the article does lead to questioning the environmental savings vs costs to produce ethanol (65% of electricity comes from coal - electric cars run on 65% coal???). Got 47 mpg on my wife's Honda Civic, 6 speed, using pure gas with a higher than required octane (no choice in the octane rating).

When I can I do octane blending at NJ Costco as they only have 87 and 93, 1/3 93 first, 2/3 87 second (93 first to get all my 93 from the hose). It is a pretty good savings over my local NY Citgo 89.

For those interested in electricity worldwide, I believe US is 65% at least it was on my last internet search.

My mistake "fossil fuels" 63%, coal 23%.
 
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PowerJrod

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E85
ethanol at 113X85=9605
gas at 85X15=1275
9605+1275=10880
85+15=100
10880/100=108.80

E10
ethanol at 113X10=1130
gas at 85X90=7650
1130+7650=8780
10+90=100
8780/100=87.80

I don't disagree with anything in the article. I would use regular gas if I could and the article does lead to questioning the environmental savings vs costs to produce ethanol (65% of electricity comes from coal - electric cars run on 65% coal???). Got 47 mpg on my wife's Honda Civic, 6 speed, using pure gas with a higher than required octane (no choice in the octane rating).

When I can I do octane blending at NJ Costco as they only have 87 and 93, 1/3 93 first, 2/3 87 second (93 first to get all my 93 from the hose). It is a pretty good savings over my local NY Citgo 89.

For those interested in electricity worldwide, I believe US is 65% at least it was on my last internet search.

My mistake "fossil fuels" 63%, coal 23%.
I've always been curious about the difference in environment emissions savings on Ethanol over E-Free. Supposedly it's the equivalent to take something like a million cars off the road which I have no doubt makes a positive impact but wonder if it's enough to really make a difference in the long run.
 

Jako

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I've always been curious about the difference in environment emissions savings on Ethanol over E-Free. Supposedly it's the equivalent to take something like a million cars off the road which I have no doubt makes a positive impact but wonder if it's enough to really make a difference in the long run.
I tend to believe that to know the whole truth you need to be an insider. I have never heard/seen a story that the electric car runs on 23% coal along with nuclear. Somehow the truth interferes with the story.
 

silver billet

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I tend to believe that to know the whole truth you need to be an insider. I have never heard/seen a story that the electric car runs on 23% coal along with nuclear. Somehow the truth interferes with the story.

I think your position is that you feel Electric cars run on coal/nuclear so therefore they're not very green?

I've heard that repeated, and it's true to a certain extent; but keep in mind current electric cars are not the target, they are a "work in progress". You have to get the ball rolling, get people buying them so that volume goes up and costs go down, and then new improvements can be made (better batteries), build out a grid that can support all the charging, develop a better system for recycling batteries etc. So in terms of "potential improvements"; gas engines are near their limits, electric cars are just getting started.

Second thing; right now coal is being used, but it's not a requirement. Nuclear, wind, solar etc, these need to be developed further as well but are being held back by several things, like NIMBY, mistrust, and subsidies to oil/gas.

Third; once cars are charged and moving, they don't emit pollution. So the pollution occurs at the power source, which is a gigantic power station where it's much easier and cheaper to regulate and control pollution, vs trying to add tiny little pollution control devices on millions of cars, where they are much less effective.

But yeah, current electric cars are still dirty if you consider the entire chain. It's the potential that should be considered though, with gas/diesel many feel we are reaching the end of the line.
 

Jako

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I think your position is that you feel Electric cars run on coal/nuclear so therefore they're not very green?

I've heard that repeated, and it's true to a certain extent; but keep in mind current electric cars are not the target, they are a "work in progress". You have to get the ball rolling, get people buying them so that volume goes up and costs go down, and then new improvements can be made (better batteries), build out a grid that can support all the charging, develop a better system for recycling batteries etc. So in terms of "potential improvements"; gas engines are near their limits, electric cars are just getting started.

Second thing; right now coal is being used, but it's not a requirement. Nuclear, wind, solar etc, these need to be developed further as well but are being held back by several things, like NIMBY, mistrust, and subsidies to oil/gas.

Third; once cars are charged and moving, they don't emit pollution. So the pollution occurs at the power source, which is a gigantic power station where it's much easier and cheaper to regulate and control pollution, vs trying to add tiny little pollution control devices on millions of cars, where they are much less effective.

But yeah, current electric cars are still dirty if you consider the entire chain. It's the potential that should be considered though, with gas/diesel many feel we are reaching the end of the line.
Consider electric cars the future and internal combustion engines history eventually. Not up on electric cars but I believe they will be more problem free than ICE. Not up on electric grid but it doesn't take too much thought to figure real issues powering everybody up. I take your points well, hope you take mine like wise.

NIMBY-this incident was in my backyard, SI residents put a stop to it, tanks still stand.
Something to be said about "millions" vs 1 location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
 

silver billet

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Consider electric cars the future and internal combustion engines history eventually. Not up on electric cars but I believe they will be more problem free than ICE. Not up on electric grid but it doesn't take too much thought to figure real issues powering everybody up. I take your points well, hope you take mine like wise.

NIMBY-this incident was in my backyard, SI residents put a stop to it, tanks still stand.
Something to be said about "millions" vs 1 location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Agreed, both Chernobyl and Fukishima were horrible, but they shouldn't be used to justify the rule, as they are the exception. Both disasters could have been prevented. Putting the backup generators below sea level was sheer "genius". And the Chernobyl reactor was not "fail safe", as all other major designs these days are. In my opinion, this is more like the airline industry. It's much safer than any other transportation, but when things fail they fail in a very large and horrible way. But it's still safer when viewing death counts per mode of transportation. So the large failure of a nuclear accident doesn't mean it's overall a bad thing.

But again, poor decision making aside, these are problems that can be overcome. With gas engines, we've kind of reached the end of the line unless there is some major breakthrough in technology which does not look likely. We have car manufacturers trying to eek out a fraction of a percentage of fuel economy by running 5w-16 or whatever it is, basically water at this point.
 

PowerJrod

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I think your position is that you feel Electric cars run on coal/nuclear so therefore they're not very green?

I've heard that repeated, and it's true to a certain extent; but keep in mind current electric cars are not the target, they are a "work in progress". You have to get the ball rolling, get people buying them so that volume goes up and costs go down, and then new improvements can be made (better batteries), build out a grid that can support all the charging, develop a better system for recycling batteries etc. So in terms of "potential improvements"; gas engines are near their limits, electric cars are just getting started.

Second thing; right now coal is being used, but it's not a requirement. Nuclear, wind, solar etc, these need to be developed further as well but are being held back by several things, like NIMBY, mistrust, and subsidies to oil/gas.

Third; once cars are charged and moving, they don't emit pollution. So the pollution occurs at the power source, which is a gigantic power station where it's much easier and cheaper to regulate and control pollution, vs trying to add tiny little pollution control devices on millions of cars, where they are much less effective.

But yeah, current electric cars are still dirty if you consider the entire chain. It's the potential that should be considered though, with gas/diesel many feel we are reaching the end of the line.
It's funny you mention that...I came across a article last month regarding the mining of lithium (I think it was) or one of the ingredients that get mined for the electric batteries. Stated that some of the countries use child labor to help mine that ore before it's shipped to the processing facility to be refined for electric car battery use.
 

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ICE will be fine if we can get back into the hydrogen game....... if not then yes they will Rest In Peace at some point down the line
 

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"I think your position is that you feel Electric cars run on coal/nuclear so therefore they're not very green?"

My point was what's behind the curtain:

Electric cars run on electricity which is produced from various sources including what an internal combustion engine (ICE) runs on. I think the perception is electric cars are "very green" and many people do not know where the energy comes from to produce the electricity. I don't know the answer to the true benefits (% vs gas) of ethanol on the environment and I don't know the answer to the % of green for electric cars vs ICE, but I do try to look behind the "curtain" for reality versus the perception.

I do find post #72 on hydrogen interesting, remember hydrogen getting kicked around, controlling the hazards will be real interesting.

Went to a lot of car fires in the 80s as a NYC fireman, car fires were very popular back in the day prior to leasing and arson investigation. Thankfully it was good old gasoline, even had lead. Not very green the car fires or the gasoline.
 

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It’s not Hindenburg or the 30s. Late 90s -Early 2000. BMW and I’m sure others, made some racked up huge miles on them. No egr, or any emissions components needed. More mpgs, performance. Making it or vehicles themselves are not the issue. It’s lack of transport and storage availability & safety.

Hybrids and EVs have a ugly side too. Lack of recycling and toxic materials when depleted with no where to go but put in ground. At this time best we got is lithium which is not native to planet earth and not renewable. Once it’s gone it’s gone in the over all look of things there’s not much out there on our planet.
Which again in full circle is blowing up land damaging our planet we are trying to save..... while mining it out with vehicles running on other petroleum fuels to get it.
 

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Hydrogen will eventually be the fuel of the future
 

Jako

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It’s not Hindenburg or the 30s. Late 90s -Early 2000. BMW and I’m sure others, made some racked up huge miles on them. No egr, or any emissions components needed. More mpgs, performance. Making it or vehicles themselves are not the issue. It’s lack of transport and storage availability & safety.

Hybrids and EVs have a ugly side too. Lack of recycling and toxic materials when depleted with no where to go but put in ground. At this time best we got is lithium which is not native to planet earth and not renewable. Once it’s gone it’s gone in the over all look of things there’s not much out there on our planet.
Which again in full circle is blowing up land damaging our planet we are trying to save..... while mining it out with vehicles running on other petroleum fuels to get it.
"It’s lack of transport and storage availability & safety." That was what I was thinking by "interesting" and the story about car fires. Procedures continued to evolve for car fires as the vehicles changed operations such as CNG Compressed Natural Gas, batteries, hydraulic struts vs springs, magnesium housings - a lot more hazards.
Supply/demand and risk/reward will play out eventually.
Advances come along, Covid 19 has changed a lot of the dynamics of society and the price for a gallon of gasoline, businesses were forced into a "work from home" model as well as educational institutions how this all plays out is speculation.

Food and population prediction: 1798 Malthus
https://www.intelligenteconomist.com/malthusian-theory/

How things change - natural gas production & cost of
 
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TBMSport

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It’s not Hindenburg or the 30s. Late 90s -Early 2000. BMW and I’m sure others, made some racked up huge miles on them. No egr, or any emissions components needed. More mpgs, performance. Making it or vehicles themselves are not the issue. It’s lack of transport and storage availability & safety.

Hybrids and EVs have a ugly side too. Lack of recycling and toxic materials when depleted with no where to go but put in ground. At this time best we got is lithium which is not native to planet earth and not renewable. Once it’s gone it’s gone in the over all look of things there’s not much out there on our planet.
Which again in full circle is blowing up land damaging our planet we are trying to save..... while mining it out with vehicles running on other petroleum fuels to get it.

Everything in this planet is 'native' and finite. Be it petroleum, lithium, or unobtainium. What determines the 'economic' lifecycle or "usefuleness" of something is the cost, time, and additional resources required to achieve a finished product. Save for asteroids and other space 'debris' that enter our atmosphere (or that which we are mining and returning from space), every molecule that exists in our world today has existed since mankind began. Molecular and atomic de- and reconstruction is what has changed the game; i.e. our ability to recognize we can make further reduce the size of building blocks to make more and different things with different chemical and physical properties. That means we can literally recycle any and everything on this planet. Just think about manure and decomposed life that feeds new vegetation. The entire photosynthesis cycle. We are a closed circuit planet, and we need to fully grasp that. Water and air pollution somewhere far far away WILL make its way across this planet, one way, or another. But as long as large influential entities (govt/big business) influence and pay influential people (workers/politicians/media) to press a particular message, well, most of us will remain limited in our views of what's the 'right' way to go.

Recycling as it should be. https://theconversation.com/if-we-cant-recycle-it-why-not-turn-our-waste-plastic-into-fuel-96128

We have countless scientific methods (known and yet unknown) to create, store and efficiently use ENERGY. At the beginning of the day no one cares where the energy comes from, so long as it's there, because we gotta get things going. Period. Once things are rolling and as the "day" goes on, we divide up our camps and determine what's a priority. BTU's, MPGs, emissions, mining issues, human labor, etc. You know. Politics.

With regards to the internal combustion engine, it has a long life left and will cohabitate with the electric motor for a multitude of reasons and benefits. I believe that electric motors will NOT permanently replace the ICE. Just as cars/trucks did not not make trains and horses obsolete. Articulation and adaptation are a long game process. Human and animal muscles and biology are adaptive with thousands to millions of years of evolution. Mechanical and electronic equipment is just a feeble human brain's attempt to do a singular repetitive (i.e. limited) task with limited interruption and "failure". Artificial Intelligence is our attempt to allow a mechanical device to do several repetitive tasks with limited interruption/failure without the hassle of telling the device when, where and how to do it. And when it comes to being a "jack of all trades" the electric motor has severe limitations in application and infrastructure.

-Yes, it has instant and maximum torque at 0 RPMs, is getting more compact and powerful, but electric motors and their electromagnet emissions (and how they impact living beings) are something which we have not sufficiently studied and/or regulated. Just like an engine, the bigger the motor, the more emissions. Further, the more power that is required in an infrastructure means bigger cable supply lines which will dissipate even more electromagnet emissions. This of course is why more localized power generation (solar panels in homes, windmills, etc.) is beneficial.

-Performance. Electric motors operate best at a narrow RPM band. That means to extract speed, you must be prepared to SERIOUSLY cool the motor AND energy source (battery), or weigh heavily on a transmission device with multiple ratios.

-Weight. The weight to performance (range, torque levels) ratio of electric vehicles compared to internal combustion vehicles is poor, and this is mainly due to the battery and required cooling systems.

-Liquid fuel simply has a more stable and longer shelf life than any present electrical battery. And it's more easily transported. Guys who have started up old vehicles with old gas in the tank know that ain't gonna happen 20 yrs from now when an 'old' barn find Tesla Model X is found. When that battery is dead, it's not only void of energy, the battery chemically/physically may be forever damaged.

-Regardless of propulsion, oil/lubrication is still going to be required. We've moved from whale oil to dino oil and or course can synthesize plant lube, but either way, we need a lubricant for high speed moving parts and those lubricants will leak, become contaminated and require recycling. And those lubricants, being in high demand and advancing in their molecular structure and abilities, will have basic properties of being flammable. Well flammable means it's combustible. And if it becomes as cheap to manufacture as electricity, it becomes (or remains in this case) an economic alternative as an energy source.

-Environmental conditions. Which would you rather have in which order if you were in the the Artic for 6 months. A Telsa, a huskies and a sled, or a fully mechanical truck? What about the Sahara for the same time frame? A camel, an EV, or old Jeep/Land Rover? Electric vehicles only work in our civilized society with a controlled environment. How about underwater? Would you want ONLY a sealed electronic device as your only means of getting around? Mechanical devices can operate under a near infinite level of circumstances with minimum support devices. All electrical devices require a mechanical bypass for 100% reliability.

-Serviceability, diagnosis, life cycle. Face it. A simple mechanical device is simple to create from countless materials, conceptually easy to understand, easy to fix, and can get the job done, albeit with frequent breakdowns and service intervals. Electrical items may have a longer and consistent life cycle and performance level, but when a singular part fails, diagnosis is a PITA. Requiring specialized equipment to analyze, disassemble, reassemble, test, calibrate, re-install, seal/protect, etc. Mechanical devices broad tolerances are what also make them durable.

So yeah, there is a space and place for EV, but the ICE is going nowhere anytime soon so long as we properly and responsibly address exhaust emissions so that, you know, we as humans can have clean air (burnouts not withstanding, of course :)) and fun.
 

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