oil weight, MDS, and lifter failure. It's settled.

[Benca101]

Been researching this one. everyone's generally right:

1. Yes, the RAM engineers probably do know better and probably do have reasons for 0w-20.
[mod: keep the politics out of the forums - you can speak your mind in OT]

However, no company is going to warranty engines over a slight downward adjustment of fleet MPG. RAM doubles down with a 5 year, 60,000 mile warranty.

But, then again, when I hear of lifter problems, they seem to start around the 100,000 mile mark, one guy I know didn't have a 'tick' until he was at 198,000 miles. So maybe they did the math, and saw that it only affects a small percentage and happens mostly outside of the warranty period. But, then again, Stellanist can't take more reputation hits for long term viability. Some have very good explanations for why thicker oil is better, like 5w-30. I get that. Some others are concerned about MDS.


Well I found this video that explains many things:

If you're a real engine dork, you'll like this if you haven't seen it. If you one of those wheels and spacers guys, you might not understand most of it. (i kid, relax).
The summary:
1. Xw-20 is the oil to use. Thicker oil doesn't do anything beyond raise oil pressure. He provides a long technical explanation along with an actual engine block to show how oil is distributed
2. The lifter problem seems to happen more to folks in cold climates. Speculates that it's because of long idling, thicker oil, and large oscilations in temperature.
3. MDS is irrelevant
4. The solution:
- Upgrade the oil pump to a Hell cat oil pump
- Change the oil much sooner than the computer states (he says around 5000 miles versus the 7 to 8 thousand mark that the computer will often fall to)
Does it settle the debate? probably not. But more food for thought on a topic where so many armchair experts have better farts than thoughts. <-- me included.

 

[silver billet]

Been researching this one. everyone's generally right:

1. Yes, the RAM engineers probably do know better and probably do have reasons for 0w-20.

Due to CAFE only. Tribology is a well understood science and that hasn't changed. Ram engineers are bound by compromise just like every other engineering decision from the dawn of time. Longevity isn't the only thing that is considered, I'm not sure why some of you have such a hard time with this concept.

[mod: keep the politics out of the forums]

No comment.

However, no company is going to warranty engines over a slight downward adjustment of fleet MPG. RAM doubles down with a 5 year, 60,000 mile warranty.

But, then again, when I hear of lifter problems, they seem to start around the 100,000 mile mark, one guy I know didn't have a 'tick' until he was at 198,000 miles. So maybe they did the math, and saw that it only affects a small percentage and happens mostly outside of the warranty period. But, then again, Stellanist can't take more reputation hits for long term viability. Some have very good explanations for why thicker oil is better, like 5w-30. I get that. Some others are concerned about MDS.


Well I found this video that explains many things:

His opinion is full of holes.

If you're a real engine dork, you'll like this if you haven't seen it. If you one of those wheels and spacers guys, you might not understand most of it. (i kid, relax).
The summary:
1. Xw-20 is the oil to use. Thicker oil doesn't do anything beyond raise oil pressure. He provides a long technical explanation along with an actual engine block to show how oil is distributed

Use xw-30

2. The lifter problem seems to happen more to folks in cold climates. Speculates that it's because of long idling, thicker oil, and large oscilations in temperature.

Not related to cold lol. Canadian trucks don't fail anymore often then USA trucks. Idling is a correlation only, failure happens with total engine runtime not idle time specifically. Idling and/or running on the road will cause a bad lifter to eventually go.

3. MDS is irrelevant

Correct

4. The solution:
- Upgrade the oil pump to a Hell cat oil pump

The stock pump has more than enough pressure and volume.

- Change the oil much sooner than the computer states (he says around 5000 miles versus the 7 to 8 thousand mark that the computer will often fall to)

Correct. 5000 to 7000 is a good target, definitely no more than 5000 when tracking/towing.

Does it settle the debate?

No it wont.

 

[SD Rebel]

While I like his videos, the one thing I don't get is his opinion that MDS improves engine lubrication. If so, why does it turn off when in Tow/Haul mode? Even when cruising lightly on level surface in 8th gear, it won't turn on while in Tow/Haul mode.

You would think that when the engine likely needs the most lubrication, MDS would be available in that situation?

 

[Benca101]

...


No it wont.

LOL, clearly.

(appreciate your input here, but when you write, "The stock pump has more than enough pressure and volume." how am I to believe this? Not you, I mean how do I know the stock pump is good enough? If I take your word for it, why? I'm no expert, but the guy in the video has been working on hemis for 30 years and shows engine blocks, pumps, lifters, an array of solid data points.)

 

[Benca101]

While I like his videos, the one thing I don't get is his opinion that MDS improves engine lubrication. If so, why does it turn off when in Tow/Haul mode? Even when cruising lightly on level surface in 8th gear, it won't turn on while in Tow/Haul mode.

You would think that when the engine likely needs the most lubrication, MDS would be available in that situation?

I'm not as quick to draw a connection from engine lubrication to tow/haul mode; there are a lot of other variables. Does the alternator, for example, lower power output when MDS is engaged? That alone should disable it when towing.

MDS has been around a long time..He shows the oil ports for the MDS lifters, which the normal lifters don't have, so they clearly get lubricated.

I'm far more inclined to give the oil pump a bit more consideration over MDS..

 

[SD Rebel]

I'm not as quick to draw a connection from engine lubrication to tow/haul mode; there are a lot of other variables. Does the alternator, for example, lower power output when MDS is engaged? That alone should disable it when towing.

MDS has been around a long time..He shows the oil ports for the MDS lifters, which the normal lifters don't have, so they clearly get lubricated.

I'm far more inclined to give the oil pump a bit more consideration over MDS..

Sure, thought my interest isn't why it shuts down, but does it actually improve lubrication when operating vs not having it on. He is saying you should always run MDS to actually improve lubrication, however when in towing mode, that lubrication is cut off for whatever reason.

So am I to believe, that the engineers are actually allowing lower lubrication mode when the engine is at it's likely most stressed?

 

[silver billet]

While I like his videos, the one thing I don't get is his opinion that MDS improves engine lubrication. If so, why does it turn off when in Tow/Haul mode? Even when cruising lightly on level surface in 8th gear, it won't turn on while in Tow/Haul mode.

You would think that when the engine likely needs the most lubrication, MDS would be available in that situation?

Exactly. That's one obvious hole in his theory, there are others.

 

[silver billet]

LOL, clearly.

(appreciate your input here, but when you write, "The stock pump has more than enough pressure and volume." how am I to believe this? Not you, I mean how do I know the stock pump is good enough? If I take your word for it, why? I'm no expert, but the guy in the video has been working on hemis for 30 years and shows engine blocks, pumps, lifters, an array of solid data points.)

Because 95+% of hemis have 0 issues with lifter failure, in a range of scenarios from city driving to offroading to hauling its entire life.

We have to ask why 1 lifter out of 16 fail in an engine under the same operating conditions. The only answer to this is a failure with an individual lifter, as opposed to a failure in the surrounding engine (design) which would effect the other 15 lifters equally but clearly they're all fine.

 

[silver billet]

but the guy in the video has been working on hemis for 30 years

The problem with this is that even FCA mechanics don't agree on what is causing it. Here is an opposing view, for example:

In talking with @TeamZero (an FCA/Stellantis tech) about this extensively, the issue is primarily a result of improper heat treating on the roller, pin, or both, that results in a "ditch" being created that eventually causes the needles to pile-up and the roller to stop rolling. Once this happens, the roller very quickly destroys the lobe. He posted some pictures of this a while back.

2021 ram 1500 5.7 hemi; PP 5w-20 5k mi

I'm kicking myself for not getting an oil report sooner so i had a benchmark for this truck. Yet here i am. Just got my oil report. 22k miles on my ram 1500 5.7. I've been consistent changing oil every 5k miles with either 5w-20 penzoil ultra platinum or penzoil platinum depending on what i...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Darksteel165]

Omg, are we playing buzzword bingo? Oil weight, MDS, Lifter failure and "it's all settled?" as the title of this thread?

Either I need a ton of popcorn or should just start out with mods locking this thread imo, troll post, no way anything valuable will come from this thread and the million others already like this.

 

[Willwork4truck]

Nothing is settled when it comes to this topic…, or for differing oil brands/qualities, the need to change/flush transmission fluid before 80K etc.
Constant fodder for new posts/threads.

For a change from oil or lifters, go over to the rv forums. “Can my 150/1500 tow this?“ is their version.

 

[Av1]

Nothing is ever settled when it comes to topics like this.

Internet forums are replete with pseudo experts having very strong opinions.

It was Lao Tzu who said "Those who know don't speak. Those who speak don't know".

I believe real experts stay out of topics like this.

It's never worth the aggravation.

 

[Benca101]

Omg, are we playing buzzword bingo? Oil weight, MDS, Lifter failure and "it's all settled?" as the title of this thread?

Either I need a ton of popcorn or should just start out with mods locking this thread imo, troll post, no way anything valuable will come from this thread and the million others already like this.

Is there an eye rolling emoji around here? "buzz words" yet the 40 minute video discusses each "buzzword" in better, more intelligvent detail than many of these threads you refer to. Didn't mean to trigger you!

 

[Benca101]

Nothing is ever settled when it comes to topics like this.

Internet forums are replete with pseudo experts having very strong opinions.

It was Lao Tzu who said "Those who know don't speak. Those who speak don't know".

I believe real experts stay out of topics like this.

It's never worth the aggravation.

well.. apologies, I thought the video was excellent, really informative, and the intention was to bring some good data points into the topic. But, clearly as someone who doesn't hang out in this forum very much, I kinda stepped into it. Yet, like a bug light on a porch, look how many showed up to complain about a 40 minute video on Hemis because the topic has been covered to death. Oh well. I'll move along.

 

[Av1]

well.. apologies, I thought the video was excellent, really informative, and the intention was to bring some good data points into the topic. But, clearly as someone who doesn't hang out in this forum very much, I kinda stepped into it. Yet, like a bug light on a porch, look how many showed up to complain about a 40 minute video on Hemis because the topic has been covered to death. Oh well. I'll move along.

My reply wasn't intended to be critical of your video.

I like watching videos that attempt to get to the bottom of issues we have.

It was meant as a commentary on how these types of threads end up. They get messy very quickly.

It's unfortunate.


edit: Don't move along.

 

[Darksteel165]

well.. apologies, I thought the video was excellent, really informative, and the intention was to bring some good data points into the topic. But, clearly as someone who doesn't hang out in this forum very much, I kinda stepped into it. Yet, like a bug light on a porch, look how many showed up to complain about a 40 minute video on Hemis because the topic has been covered to death. Oh well. I'll move along.

This exact video has already been posted several times on this fourm.
Theres nothing go be gained by yet another pointless thread.
You aren't triggering me, but it seems you are just posting to troll, or you really have no idea how pointless and toxic threads about gearing, oil weight, lifter failure are??????? You titled the thread as "it's settled" , and no it isn't. You found some random YouTube video online and think everything is fact that a single random guy did to fix all the lifter failures, right.

 

[Benca101]

This exact video has already been posted several times on this fourm.
Theres nothing go be gained by yet another pointless thread.
You aren't triggering me, but it seems you are just posting to troll, or you really have no idea how pointless and toxic threads about gearing, oil weight, lifter failure are??????? You titled the thread as "it's settled" , and no it isn't. You found some random YouTube video online and think everything is fact that a single random guy did to fix all the lifter failures, right.

lol, dude..take an internet break and touch grass. 5000 posts? LOL.

 

[Darksteel165]

lol, dude..take an internet break and touch grass. 5000 posts? LOL.

33 posts? Learn how to use a search function and know what meme posts are, because this is one. Dead house has been beat.

 

[Mountain Whiskey]

I'll bet he has a 23 gallon gas tank and 3.21 gears too!

 

[Mirowpl]

I knew the 3.21 had to brought into this. Thanks mountain whiskey!