Hard cold start after header install

[Jjrich04]

Slightly off topic as I’m no help with your issue, what headers did you install and how hard were they to?

I put on JBA shorties. It took me two days to do what I’m told is a 4 hour install in the shop. The only hard part is getting the bolts in the new headers due to the way the tubes block the bolt holes. I bet long tubes would be easier and more worthwhile. Didn’t get a whole lot of performance gain out of it from what I can feel. The only prominent difference is that I hear more engine noise. I did the borla resonator at the same time so I’m not sure what it did to the exhaust tone.

 

[Jjrich04]

Here’s a video of the truck’s morning fit.

 

[BowDown]

But unlocking the ECM to tune it will. Unless you get a NEW/UNLOCKED one - and swap it in.

I was considering the MOPAR CAT-back & CAI - with an ECM and Tune. But I really don't need a 7Klbs truck to move faster. I like how quiet it is.

Which is not to put-down others that choose to spend $$ on performance upgrades. I typically try not to mess with my "daily drivers", and get a "toy" to mess with (said the guy with a Polaris Slingshot - Supercharger/headers/cams - 05 corvette with blower/cams/etc - 17 Subaru BRZ blower/headers/etc. - so I'm no stranger to blowing obscene warranty voiding $$ on toys).

That and I already get (what I consider to be) crappy mileage (even when I try to keep my foot out of it). Anything that tempts me to use my right foot even more - isn't going to help in that department either.

More power (pun intended) to those that choose to. I can live vicariously via your wallets...

Rick

Yes, unlocking the PCM will absolutely void the warranty relative to the drivetrain/powertrain but the comment was headers alone and they will not.

But I really don't need a 7Klbs truck to move faster. I like how quiet it is.

I absolutely agree with this, I bought a Limited, The 2019/2020 Luxury VEHICLE of the year, for a reason, I want it quiet and luxurious so we are in 10,000% agreement on that and short of putting a Hellcat/Redeye engine in this trucks, they will never be quick. I have my 620whp Z06 if I want quick or loud or annoying.

Which is not to put-down others that choose to spend $$ on performance upgrades. I typically try not to mess with my "daily drivers", and get a "toy" to mess with (said the guy with a Polaris Slingshot - Supercharger/headers/cams - 05 corvette with blower/cams/etc - 17 Subaru BRZ blower/headers/etc. - so I'm no stranger to blowing obscene warranty voiding $$ on toys).

We're on the same page here, I have a Z06 with a $20K engine and a $10K driveline, car is fast as F and I'm sick of it, so sick of it to the point that I'm not even going to put a K&N air filter on this truck or do a damn thing to the exhaust to make more noise, f that.
All I want is this truck to continue getting 18mpg in the city and stay quiet, I'll be happy
I dont think having a 2nd stock PCM would help, the BCM talks to the PCM and I'm sure FCA like GM has a way of detecting that the PCM has been swapped

ETA, just saw your fuelly, how the hell are you only getting 10mpg?

 

[BowDown]

I’m not seeing a valve on here anywhere. Pics below. I’m guessing I need some sort of adapter which doesn’t come with the kit they have at the the local auto parts store.

No fuel smell under the hood but I do smell it from the exhaust on that first start in the morning. Still seems to fit what you’re suggesting.

I’m curious if depressurizing the fuel system before I go to bed would yield any useful info. I suppose if the injector is stuck open it would still leak the residual fuel into the fuel rail?

I might order something if I can find a testing kit that will work the truck.

Looks like they removed that valve from the fuel rail, you'd need to disconnect the feed, the 3rd pic in the rear or disconnect the crossover line and add a log there with a tap for a gauge.
Yes, you could depressurize the system over night and see if the problem reoccurs on a cold start. Smelling fuel on a cold start isn't necessarily a tell since you're running in enrichment mode when cold starting to light off the cats, you still have cats right?

The fact that it starts easier when hot points to a fuel leak unfortunately however f it is a bad /leaking injector, you should still have a fuel smell when its warmed up

 

[Hockeygod1225]

Headers will not alter your AFR beyond predefined norms already in the PCM. You need a full to get every last drop of power that the headers can give but they do not alter AFR enough to be a problem. The only real thing they will do is improve cylinder fill in the upper RPMs and expose the intake system limitations. I drove my Z06 for 10 years with headers and no tune and the plugs never looked lean or rich beyond what was expected/stock.
O2 sensors are there to adjust the injector pulse width within a preset range, thats it. No connection to throttle body or ignition

My 2010 mustang when I first started modding would run like crap and throw check engine lights. I build engines and can abso

Headers will not alter your AFR beyond predefined norms already in the PCM. You need a full to get every last drop of power that the headers can give but they do not alter AFR enough to be a problem. The only real thing they will do is improve cylinder fill in the upper RPMs and expose the intake system limitations. I drove my Z06 for 10 years with headers and no tune and the plugs never looked lean or rich beyond what was expected/stock.
O2 sensors are there to adjust the injector pulse width within a preset range, thats it. No connection to throttle body or ignition

Headers can effect afr and how rich or lean you are running. The computer can only compensate so much. This is why many reputable header manufacturers with state "Tune required" with their headers.

The reason everyone runs rich at idle and cruse is because O2s work off of heat. No heat = lean.....

With stock manifolds, the O2s run hotter due to being so close to the exhaust port. As such, they "switch" around a higher voltage and this "switch" voltage is what the computer takes as being the correct area (the computer directly tries to keep the O2s around this voltage).

When you install headers, the O2s move way down the line to the collector (WAY away from the exhaust port). As such, during low flow times (idle and cruse), the O2s run cold. This cold running makes the O2s switch around a lower voltage which the computer takes to mean "not enough fuel." As such, the computer dumps loads of fuel into the mix in order to heat up the exhaust (this fuel is actually burning inside the exhaust) and as such boost the temps.

When you retune, you adjust this "switch voltage" to tell the computer "no....that is indeed the correct voltage to be at when in this cell."


You will run lean at high RPM, you are flowing more air than the MAP/vs./RPM table indicates. The MAF somewhat compensates for this but it is never perfect.

I have been through this kind of stuff many times. For knowledge reference I have a 2010 mustang with a supercharged 326 stoker motor and methanol injection with a return fuel system. I built and installed everything myself and worked with 2 different companies to get the best tune possible for my setup.

 

[Jjrich04]

Looks like they removed that valve from the fuel rail, you'd need to disconnect the feed, the 3rd pic in the rear or disconnect the crossover line and add a log there with a tap for a gauge.
Yes, you could depressurize the system over night and see if the problem reoccurs on a cold start. Smelling fuel on a cold start isn't necessarily a tell since you're running in enrichment mode when cold starting to light off the cats, you still have cats right?

The fact that it starts easier when hot points to a fuel leak unfortunately however f it is a bad /leaking injector, you should still have a fuel smell when its warmed up

Yes, cats are still on the truck. I’ll try depressurizing tonight and check how it starts in the morning after running the fuel pump a few times.

 

[BowDown]

My 2010 mustang when I first started modding would run like crap and throw check engine lights. I build engines and can abso

Headers can effect afr and how rich or lean you are running. The computer can only compensate so much. This is why many reputable header manufacturers with state "Tune required" with their headers.

American Racing Headers recommends a tune but states its not necessary.

The reason everyone runs rich at idle and cruse is because O2s work off of heat. No heat = lean.....

O2 sensors measure O2, they only need heat to function properly which is why most are now heated. Them not being hot will only cause the engine to run in closed loop instead of open which is taking data from sensors .

With stock manifolds, the O2s run hotter due to being so close to the exhaust port. As such, they "switch" around a higher voltage and this "switch" voltage is what the computer takes as being the correct area (the computer directly tries to keep the O2s around this voltage).

Again, see heated O2 and its the cats needing to be close to the manifolds in order to lite off and get hot.

When you install headers, the O2s move way down the line to the collector (WAY away from the exhaust port). As such, during low flow times (idle and cruse), the O2s run cold. This cold running makes the O2s switch around a lower voltage which the computer takes to mean "not enough fuel." As such, the computer dumps loads of fuel into the mix in order to heat up the exhaust (this fuel is actually burning inside the exhaust) and as such boost the temps.

Again, see heated O2's
O2 sensors very the voltage based upon the O2 content, not heat/temp of the sensor. Using your logic, an engine with headers would always read rich due to O2 location. I have full long tube ARH headers on my Z06, what you describe does not happen.
Also, dumping fuel is used to cool a cylinder, not heat. Lean conditions create heat dumping fuel is used on the C6ZR1 during extreme situations to cool the cats.

Making Sense of Sensors: The Oxygen Sensor

The oxygen sensor, otherwise known as the O2 sensor, does what its name suggests – it measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. While this may sound like a fairly modest...

www.delphiautoparts.com

O2 sensors can typically be categorized as either a narrow band or wide band sensor. A sensing element sits inside the sensor, encased in a steel housing. Oxygen molecules from the exhaust gas pass through tiny slots or holes in the sensor’s steel shell to reach the sensing element or nernst cell. On the other side of the nernst cell, oxygen from the air outside the exhaust travels down the O2 sensor and makes contact. The difference in the amount of oxygen between that present in the outside air, and that present in the exhaust promotes the flow of oxygen ions and produces voltage.

When you retune, you adjust this "switch voltage" to tell the computer "no....that is indeed the correct voltage to be at when in this cell."

No you adjust ignition timing and the fuel injector pluse, look at HP tuners. The only thing you can do to an O2 senor is turn the rears off.

You will run lean at high RPM, you are flowing more air than the MAP/vs./RPM table indicates. The MAF somewhat compensates for this but it is never perfect.

No you won't, headers alone will not make you run too lean.

I have been through this kind of stuff many times. For knowledge reference I have a 2010 mustang with a supercharged 326 stoker motor and methanol injection with a return fuel system. I built and installed everything myself and worked with 2 different companies to get the best tune possible for my setup.

I have built Z06 with an N/A ERL 434ci LSX stroker motor, 600 rwhp on 93 and 625 rwhp on e85, 2 tunes, one mass air and one speed density as the cam is a 250/258 @.050. Heated front O2s in ARH 31" long tube headers.

All this aside, headers are not causing the OPs issue and O2 are out even in the equation during a cold start

 

[BowDown]

Yes, cats are still on the truck. I’ll try depressurizing tonight and check how it starts in the morning after running the fuel pump a few times.

On cold starts, do you have black smoke?
How are you verifying that you're back on the stock tune?

 

[RSConsulting]

Yes, unlocking the PCM will absolutely void the warranty relative to the drivetrain/powertrain but the comment was headers alone and they will not.

I absolutely agree with this, I bought a Limited, The 2019/2020 Luxury VEHICLE of the year, for a reason, I want it quiet and luxurious so we are in 10,000% agreement on that and short of putting a Hellcat/Redeye engine in this trucks, they will never be quick. I have my 620whp Z06 if I want quick or loud or annoying.



We're on the same page here, I have a Z06 with a $20K engine and a $10K driveline, car is fast as F and I'm sick of it, so sick of it to the point that I'm not even going to put a K&N air filter on this truck or do a damn thing to the exhaust to make more noise, f that.
All I want is this truck to continue getting 18mpg in the city and stay quiet, I'll be happy
I dont think having a 2nd stock PCM would help, the BCM talks to the PCM and I'm sure FCA like GM has a way of detecting that the PCM has been swapped

ETA, just saw your fuelly, how the hell are you only getting 10mpg?

Original poster mentioned tune and going back to factory tune - so he either has an unlocked PCM, or a swapout. It appears that FCA is quick to try and get out of warranty repairs at the slightest provocation - and unlocked PCM's are going to guarantee that. Hell - I take out my pedal commander and Tazer every time I roll into the dealership. Depending on what you're trying to warranty - would determine how deeply FCA is going to look for a PCM swap. If you sucked a valve or smoked a motor - they will definitely be looking for a way that THEY don't have to eat the replacement.

If you want a monster RAM - don't dump $$ you'll never get back out on modding your current one - and get in line for a TRX (with a factory warranty). Or mod away. Far be it from me to tell others how to spend their $$.

My 05 vette was 680 to the wheel (closer to 700 on a cold weather tune) - used to race rice rockets with it. My BRZ was so quick, I had to stop driving it - literally got pulled over nearly every time I drove - was impossible to drive slow.

Don't know why I'm getting such crappy mileage. Might have something to do with the Pedal Commander, but I was doing that poorly before it went in - so? I expected it to do somewhat better - but OTOH - I was averaging 16MPG on my '16 Honda Pilot - so this isn't a huge shock. Jealous of others better mileage? Sure. But I'm not eating Raman Noodles because of it either. There's 20 or so fuel-ups in there - towing at high speeds - so there's that too.


I'm just not going to mod this truck (repeat 3X until the urge passes) - at least not drivetrain. I have $5K of Focal/Moscone mobile audio I pulled out of my last vehicle - and I'm not going to tear this truck apart to put it in. Would it sound WORLDS BETTER? Sure it would. At the cost of install, losing my underseat storage, and having to rip it back out down the road? Nah.

Like I said - I don't knock folks for modding their stuff. Like every other mod-aholic - as long as you don't delude yourself into calling it "an investment" (because you'll never get your $$ back out of it), you have the disposable $$ - mod away and enjoy.

I did the sway bar to handle the sloppy cornering - the Tazer (primarily) to turn off the seat belt alarm (but the autofolding mirrors and a few other features are cool) - and the PC to deal with the poor pedal response. I'm done modding.

Rick

 

[Jjrich04]

Okay, so last night I disconnected the negative battery terminal, pulled the fuel pump fuse, reconnected the battery and ran the ignition several times to depressurize the fuel system. This morning I reconnected everything, re-pressurized the fuel system and the truck started without the slightest bit of hesitation. I think this confirms BowDown’s injector theory.

Question now is what to do about it? I see a few options:
1. Pay a mechanic to find the bad injector and replace it (I don’t have the technical know how or patience to chase down one bad injector).
2. Replace them all in my driveway with oem (around $30/ea)
3. Find and install after market injectors that might hold up a little better (in case my tune did stress it to failure)

 

[Scarriere]

When I put AFE longtubes on mine it seemed like the computer had to learn for a bit. It started a bit rough for maybe a couple of days, but had been perfect since then.
I put them on in June, no issues at all now.

Your truck sounds pretty good in that YT video!

 

[PowerJrod]

Okay, so last night I disconnected the negative battery terminal, pulled the fuel pump fuse, reconnected the battery and ran the ignition several times to depressurize the fuel system. This morning I reconnected everything, re-pressurized the fuel system and the truck started without the slightest bit of hesitation. I think this confirms BowDown’s injector theory.

Question now is what to do about it? I see a few options:
1. Pay a mechanic to find the bad injector and replace it (I don’t have the technical know how or patience to chase down one bad injector).
2. Replace them all in my driveway with oem (around $30/ea)
3. Find and install after market injectors that might hold up a little better (in case my tune did stress it to failure)

So is the tune that caused the fuel injection problem or do you think it's a combination of the injectors and tune..?

 

[BowDown]

Original poster mentioned tune and going back to factory tune - so he either has an unlocked PCM, or a swapout. It appears that FCA is quick to try and get out of warranty repairs at the slightest provocation - and unlocked PCM's are going to guarantee that. Hell - I take out my pedal commander and Tazer every time I roll into the dealership. Depending on what you're trying to warranty - would determine how deeply FCA is going to look for a PCM swap. If you sucked a valve or smoked a motor - they will definitely be looking for a way that THEY don't have to eat the replacement.

If you want a monster RAM - don't dump $$ you'll never get back out on modding your current one - and get in line for a TRX (with a factory warranty). Or mod away. Far be it from me to tell others how to spend their $$.

My 05 vette was 680 to the wheel (closer to 700 on a cold weather tune) - used to race rice rockets with it. My BRZ was so quick, I had to stop driving it - literally got pulled over nearly every time I drove - was impossible to drive slow.

Don't know why I'm getting such crappy mileage. Might have something to do with the Pedal Commander, but I was doing that poorly before it went in - so? I expected it to do somewhat better - but OTOH - I was averaging 16MPG on my '16 Honda Pilot - so this isn't a huge shock. Jealous of others better mileage? Sure. But I'm not eating Raman Noodles because of it either. There's 20 or so fuel-ups in there - towing at high speeds - so there's that too.


I'm just not going to mod this truck (repeat 3X until the urge passes) - at least not drivetrain. I have $5K of Focal/Moscone mobile audio I pulled out of my last vehicle - and I'm not going to tear this truck apart to put it in. Would it sound WORLDS BETTER? Sure it would. At the cost of install, losing my underseat storage, and having to rip it back out down the road? Nah.

Like I said - I don't knock folks for modding their stuff. Like every other mod-aholic - as long as you don't delude yourself into calling it "an investment" (because you'll never get your $$ back out of it), you have the disposable $$ - mod away and enjoy.

I did the sway bar to handle the sloppy cornering - the Tazer (primarily) to turn off the seat belt alarm (but the autofolding mirrors and a few other features are cool) - and the PC to deal with the poor pedal response. I'm done modding.

Rick

No argument from me, been there and still have the audio stuff in the attic. Not going to touch this truck at all. Assume your vette was SC'd, fun cars but the modding is a MONEY PIT and I'm done, beyond done

 

[Jjrich04]

So is the tune that caused the fuel injection problem or do you think it's a combination of the injectors and tune..?

I’m really not sure but I have found a lot of posts on google from newish Ram 1500 owners that seem to have this hard cold start issue without the modding. They rarely ever seem to post their resolution so I don’t know how many of them are due to a leaking injector, but it makes me wonder if the manufacturer Ram uses has the propensity to occasionally ship out a bad batch.

On the other hand, HemiFever is a pretty popular tune amongst Ram/Dodge owners and I haven’t seen wide-spread reports of people blowing their injectors after loading the tune.

I would guess a slightly out of speck injector plus the additional workload from the tune did it in but I’m pretty ignorant on the subject so I could be way off.

 

[BowDown]

Okay, so last night I disconnected the negative battery terminal, pulled the fuel pump fuse, reconnected the battery and ran the ignition several times to depressurize the fuel system. This morning I reconnected everything, re-pressurized the fuel system and the truck started without the slightest bit of hesitation. I think this confirms BowDown’s injector theory.

Question now is what to do about it? I see a few options:
1. Pay a mechanic to find the bad injector and replace it (I don’t have the technical know how or patience to chase down one bad injector).
2. Replace them all in my driveway with oem (around $30/ea)
3. Find and install after market injectors that might hold up a little better (in case my tune did stress it to failure)

How about buying 1 or 2 and swapping injectors until the problem goes away, otherwise, the easiest thing is going to be start pulling spark plugs looking for a wet one.
Given cylinders 7 and 8 are the most difficult to get to, I'd start there as it's likely one of them. When I broke a valve spring on my 03, it was the intake on #8. the only one worse would have been the exhaust on #7.

 

[BowDown]

I’m really not sure but I have found a lot posts on google from newish Ram 1500 owners that seem to have this hard cold start issue without the modding. They rarely ever seem to post their resolution so I don’t know how many of them are due to a leaking injector, but it makes me wonder if the manufacturer Ram uses has the propensity to occasionally ship out a bad batch.

On the other hand, HemiFever is a pretty popular tune amongst Ram/Dodge owners and I haven’t seen wide-spread reports of people blowing their injectors after loading the tune.

I would guess a slightly out of speck injector plus the additional workload from the tune did it in but I’m pretty ignorant on the subject so I could be way off.

There's been some Redeyes too, right off the lot.
It could just be bad luck/coincidence too and the tune had nothing to do with it, luckily injectors are relatively cheap and easy to replace.

 

[BowDown]

Okay, so last night I disconnected the negative battery terminal, pulled the fuel pump fuse, reconnected the battery and ran the ignition several times to depressurize the fuel system. This morning I reconnected everything, re-pressurized the fuel system and the truck started without the slightest bit of hesitation. I think this confirms BowDown’s injector theory.

Question now is what to do about it? I see a few options:
1. Pay a mechanic to find the bad injector and replace it (I don’t have the technical know how or patience to chase down one bad injector).
2. Replace them all in my driveway with oem (around $30/ea)
3. Find and install after market injectors that might hold up a little better (in case my tune did stress it to failure)

A lot of aftermarket injectors will require a specific tune for them, decide how far you are going to go with this truck. More mods better injector, go with FIC (fuel injector clinic) DO NOT USE Fuel Injector Connection. Otherwise, put a stocker back in

 

[Jjrich04]

How about buying 1 or 2 and swapping injectors until the problem goes away, otherwise, the easiest thing is going to be start pulling spark plugs looking for a wet one.
Given cylinders 7 and 8 are the most difficult to get to, I'd start there as it's likely one of them. When I broke a valve spring on my 03, it was the intake on #8. the only one worse would have been the exhaust on #7.

Normally I’d be game for this strategy but I have been working 60+ hours a week since February and normally can only find one day a week to do anything outside of work/sleep. I’m utilizing this holiday weekend because I’m exhausted but Tuesday forward I’m back to the grind. If I’m unlucky, it could take me a month to get through the injectors at a rate of two per weekend. Maybe do four? But then I run into the cost effectiveness of this compared to paying someone. Also, what if there are two leaking on opposing fuel rails? I can see that giving me a headache.

 

[Jjrich04]

A lot of aftermarket injectors will require a specific tune for them, decide how far you are going to go with this truck. More mods better injector, go with FIC (fuel injector clinic) DO NOT USE Fuel Injector Connection. Otherwise, put a stocker back in

Thanks, I’ll look into FIC.

As far as future plans go, I may throw a Whipple on it sometime in the future. Wife wants a bigger house so the SC is probably a year off. I’m thinking if I do go the SC route, it’ll probably stop there so long as this is my daily driver.

 

[PowerJrod]

I’m really not sure but I have found a lot of posts on google from newish Ram 1500 owners that seem to have this hard cold start issue without the modding. They rarely ever seem to post their resolution so I don’t know how many of them are due to a leaking injector, but it makes me wonder if the manufacturer Ram uses has the propensity to occasionally ship out a bad batch.

On the other hand, HemiFever is a pretty popular tune amongst Ram/Dodge owners and I haven’t seen wide-spread reports of people blowing their injectors after loading the tune.

I would guess a slightly out of speck injector plus the additional workload from the tune did it in but I’m pretty ignorant on the subject so I could be way off.

Might not be a bad idea to take it to a service center that you trust and have them check out the injectors for you. I'm sure they're still under warranty...if not...I'd get the tune shop to start owning up to it.