Best Oil for Hemi "Tick"

[boogielander]

I find it interesting you are using a 0w40 or 5w40 weight. I have heard a lot of people going to 5w30 specifically redline. My warranty just ended and am wanting to try using a thicker oil. I made a post recently about hemi tick after towing. (not the exhaust manifolds they were just replace a month ago) I have always ran PUP 5w20 every 6000 kms (3700miles) and I have about 92000kms (57000 miles) I was planning on using the PUP 5w30 but am curious about going to a 0w40. Have you disabled your MDS? 0w40 also came on my radar recently after hearing about the GM 6.2 recall where they are changing the oil from a 0w20 to 0w40 to provide better crankshaft bearing lubrication. What brand of oil are you using?

nope no disabling MDS
I use what the SRT engine uses and so far it's been great.
i used mobil1 or liqui molly 0-40 when i could find it, and liqui molly 5-40.

 

[silver billet]

If your cam lobes or lifters fail it is because of improper hardening. There is no magic oil in any viscosity that will fix the issue; they will fail because the issue is metallurgical - a defect.

GM (and Ford for that matter in the past) has proven that viscosity plays an even more important roll once material starts to degrade. This isn't about "fixing the issue", its about keeping your engine running as long as possible. Hemi cams and lifters degrade as well, speculation on what goes first the lifter or the cam, but viscosity absolutely plays a roll once the cam starts to deteriorate.

Oil viscosity spec is based on main bearing clearances and expected operating temperature in the sump. 5w20 will be fine unless you are towing loads at the limits in the mountains, or something on that level of extremity. The measurable difference in a 20 and a 30 at operating temperature is negligible.

It's not negligible. Read up on HT/HS, there are charts out there showing once HT/HS falls below a certain point then you basically have physical parts in contact with eachother and at that point you're relying on the anti wear additives instead of the oil film. If I'm towing that should be above 3 IMHO, and 20 grades don't get you there.

If 5w30 lets you sleep better and you are out of warranty, have at it. But in warranty if you have to document maintenance you are out of the recommended spec and introducing needless risk.

There is not a single report of 5w-30 causing denial of warranty in a hemi just because of 5w-30. In fact previous owners manuals not only allowed it, they recommended it when towing near GVWR.

I completely understand the fact that a lot of enthusiasts don’t like the epa messing with oil viscosity specs. But between the tighter main bearing clearances, tighter piston skirt to wall clearances, microfinishing and the generally higher precision you find in modern motors, the risks of the lower viscosity oils has been pretty much reduced to zero.

No it hasn't. There are no tighter bearing clearances, these haven't changed in decades, definitely not in the hemi which was designed like 28 years ago and first hit the market in 2005. I think some newer toyotas are starting to experiment in that area and "require" 16 grades or less, that's not at all applicable to an old school v8 like ours, or the pentastar for that matter.

None of this means use a 20 wt in an engine spec’d for something greater, but you will find that those are generally very heavy duty applications or high performance vehicles where there is a higher potential for extreme sump temperatures, so you want to make sure viscosity stays adequate to maintain the wedge of lubrication necessary to prevent the crankshaft from landing.

You'll also note if you dig around that so many people report a quieter valve train with thicker viscosity. Your choice, use a 20 grade which gets you absolutely nothing, or a 30 grade which offers more protection and a quieter engine.

 

[frisby5]

GM (and Ford for that matter in the past) has proven that viscosity plays an even more important roll once material starts to degrade. This isn't about "fixing the issue", its about keeping your engine running as long as possible. Hemi cams and lifters degrade as well, speculation on what goes first the lifter or the cam, but viscosity absolutely plays a roll once the cam starts to deteriorate.


It's not negligible. Read up on HT/HS, there are charts out there showing once HT/HS falls below a certain point then you basically have physical parts in contact with eachother and at that point you're relying on the anti wear additives instead of the oil film. If I'm towing that should be above 3 IMHO, and 20 grades don't get you there.


There is not a single report of 5w-30 causing denial of warranty in a hemi just because of 5w-30. In fact previous owners manuals not only allowed it, they recommended it when towing near GVWR.


No it hasn't. There are no tighter bearing clearances, these haven't changed in decades, definitely not in the hemi which was designed like 28 years ago and first hit the market in 2005. I think some newer toyotas are starting to experiment in that area and "require" 16 grades or less, that's not at all applicable to an old school v8 like ours, or the pentastar for that matter.



You'll also note if you dig around that so many people report a quieter valve train with thicker viscosity. Your choice, use a 20 grade which gets you absolutely nothing, or a 30 grade which offers more protection and a quieter engine.

Alot of different opinions about wear and oil i switched to 30w because i tow heavy and climb alot of mountains ,seen my oil temps get really high. I dont have very many miles on my truck but when i did switch to 30w it did quiet the valve train

 

[Scram1500]

Wonder what viscosity will be recommended when(if) a V8 returns to the RAM half ton, specially now the EPA has lost its clout. Regardless, the viscosity dilemma will continue. Use what's recommended, or go with what you think it needs. Hopefully its not 40 weight or we will have to step up to gear oil. What do people with the 6.4 do?

 

[RAL]

GM (and Ford for that matter in the past) has proven that viscosity plays an even more important roll once material starts to degrade. This isn't about "fixing the issue", its about keeping your engine running as long as possible. Hemi cams and lifters degrade as well, speculation on what goes first the lifter or the cam, but viscosity absolutely plays a roll once the cam starts to deteriorate.


It's not negligible. Read up on HT/HS, there are charts out there showing once HT/HS falls below a certain point then you basically have physical parts in contact with eachother and at that point you're relying on the anti wear additives instead of the oil film. If I'm towing that should be above 3 IMHO, and 20 grades don't get you there.


There is not a single report of 5w-30 causing denial of warranty in a hemi just because of 5w-30. In fact previous owners manuals not only allowed it, they recommended it when towing near GVWR.


No it hasn't. There are no tighter bearing clearances, these haven't changed in decades, definitely not in the hemi which was designed like 28 years ago and first hit the market in 2005. I think some newer toyotas are starting to experiment in that area and "require" 16 grades or less, that's not at all applicable to an old school v8 like ours, or the pentastar for that matter.



You'll also note if you dig around that so many people report a quieter valve train with thicker viscosity. Your choice, use a 20 grade which gets you absolutely nothing, or a 30 grade which offers more protection and a quieter engine.

Oil has become a matter of religion for you in the sense that you need to justify to yourself, and evangelize others, as to the fact that HPL is necessary etc. HPL is a fine product but unnecessary most applications that are not commercial where you want extended protection over long drain intervals, such as where you are running a commercial fleet. I don’t want to argue with you. I have stated my views, I have raced for many years, and disassembled many motors. The reality is that for the vast majority of consumers the factory recommended grade will be fine, particularly a synthetic. Just because the oil grade was changed to meet an EPA requirement does not mean the recommendation is bad per se, although I grant I don’t like it either. (Relatedly do you know for sure that they didn’t change the gearing or ratio on the oil pump to increase flow and pressure?)

As far as the warranty stuff goes again I don’t want to cause alarm because I would be seriously shocked if a 30 caused any issue. That being said, as an experiment, ask your local dealer or most private shops to use an oil grade that is Not in the manual - they will question it and give you grief, if they do it at all, because it puts them at risk for no appreciable benefit. This is why I say the smart call is that when you are under warranty, follow the manual. It’s a needless aggravation point more than a mechanical engineering one.

Finally, the GM example is irrelevant. GM is masking bad metallurgy with higher viscosity oil. It is a Band aid to defectively machined and manufactured part(s). That experience or issue is irrelevant to the issue of what oil to use in a hemi. If lifters for example will fail with a 20, they will fail with a 30.

Believe what you want/. These are simply the facts, and again if a 30 lets you sleep better at night go for it.

 

[chris17bh]

My 2017 (bought new) is noticeably quieter with a decent 5-30W oil. Oil pressure at hot idle is also a bit higher. Our 2022 specs 0W-20 but I wouldn't run that either.

For anyone worried about 5W-30 vs 5W-20 (or 0W-20), a lot of -30W oils sheer down to 20W pretty quickly. If it ever came down to a dealer actually sending the oil out for testing (doubt it would go that far), unless it was brand new oil Im guessing a -30W would come back in the range of -20W anyway.

You can even use the oil that has Mopar spec, like Pennzoil, in 5W-30 and I bet it would never be noticed. In regards to lifter/cam failure, my service dept said the first thing they do is pull the valve covers and send Mopar pictures. If the engine looks like its been maintained, they almost always get a go-ahead on warranty coverage. Weight of oil doesn't come into play at all.

 

[SD Rebel]

On a side note, quite a few mention this, but I don't know if having a quieter engine does anything towards the reliability in regards to the 5.7l.

Some engines are just naturally chatty, I don't think you're improving the reliability by making it quieter, the issue in regards to the Hemi is dropping lifters which is down to the roller pins, which is most likely a manufacturing variance that can be exacerbated by a lack of maintenance.

 

[chris17bh]

On a side note, quite a few mention this, but I don't know if having a quieter engine means towards reliability in regards to the 5.7l.

Some engines are just naturally chatty, I don't think you're improving the reliability by making it quieter, the issue in regards to the Hemi is dropping lifters which is down to the roller pins, which is most likely a manufacturing variance that can be exacerbated by a lack of maintenance.

This is true. Smarter people than myself have mentioned its because of how much more horizontal the pushrods are, they get noisy.

In my brain, quieter is better because it (might) mean there is "cushion" between the moving metal parts. Cam lobes, pushrods, etc. Also with heavier weight oils you get a higher "film strength" which would be helpful at lower RPMs where less oil is circulating. The oil will "stick" longer between the parts, providing at least a little extra time before it would be "dry" enough to create wear.

Forever ago I landed on a page with various PCM s/w versions from Mopar and they had a bunch labelled with different RPMs, my guess is they were testing different idle speeds to try and get oil pressure up. Just judging from my own truck, even a 100RPM increase in idle speed makes a big difference in oil pressure (and presumably flow)

 

[silver billet]

Oil has become a matter of religion for you in the sense that you need to justify to yourself, and evangelize others, as to the fact that HPL is necessary etc.

No. HPL has proven success, no religion required.

HPL is a fine product but unnecessary most applications that are not commercial where you want extended protection over long drain intervals, such as where you are running a commercial fleet. I don’t want to argue with you. I have stated my views, I have raced for many years, and disassembled many motors. The reality is that for the vast majority of consumers the factory recommended grade will be fine, particularly a synthetic.

The reality is, many people are experience lifter failures. We don't have proof of why, but we do have at least one engineers/machinist expert analysis which said (paraphrasing): "there was sufficient oil, but the oil failed to meet the demands". In other words, viscosity and oil choice/formula is very important, HPL is just at the top of the formula food chain, and 30 grade is better than 20 grade. If you're like me and want to give your engine every chance of hitting 300k+ miles, then you don't play games with oil or try to save money or reduce the viscosity to save $5/year on fuel.

Just because the oil grade was changed to meet an EPA requirement does not mean the recommendation is bad per se, although I grant I don’t like it either. (Relatedly do you know for sure that they didn’t change the gearing or ratio on the oil pump to increase flow and pressure?)

As far as the warranty stuff goes again I don’t want to cause alarm because I would be seriously shocked if a 30 caused any issue. That being said, as an experiment, ask your local dealer or most private shops to use an oil grade that is Not in the manual - they will question it and give you grief, if they do it at all, because it puts them at risk for no appreciable benefit. This is why I say the smart call is that when you are under warranty, follow the manual. It’s a needless aggravation point more than a mechanical engineering one.

Finally, the GM example is irrelevant. GM is masking bad metallurgy with higher viscosity oil. It is a Band aid to defectively machined and manufactured part(s). That experience or issue is irrelevant to the issue of what oil to use in a hemi. If lifters for example will fail with a 20, they will fail with a 30.

No it's not irrelevant. It's just even more proof that viscosity is required when the materials start to degrade which is what these hemi's have been doing for years. We don't know what fails first; does the weak cam take out the lifter, or does the lifter take out the cam? Maybe some fail the cam first and others the lifters. You simply cannot make that statement with any authority that it will fail on 30 grade if it would on 20.

Believe what you want/. These are simply the facts, and again if a 30 lets you sleep better at night go for it.

Yeah that's kinda the point. But half of your "facts", aren't.

 

[SD Rebel]

This is true. Smarter people than myself have mentioned its because of how much more horizontal the pushrods are, they get noisy.

In my brain, quieter is better because it (might) mean there is "cushion" between the moving metal parts. Cam lobes, pushrods, etc. Also with heavier weight oils you get a higher "film strength" which would be helpful at lower RPMs where less oil is circulating. The oil will "stick" longer between the parts, providing at least a little extra time before it would be "dry" enough to create wear.

Forever ago I landed on a page with various PCM s/w versions from Mopar and they had a bunch labelled with different RPMs, my guess is they were testing different idle speeds to try and get oil pressure up. Just judging from my own truck, even a 100RPM increase in idle speed makes a big difference in oil pressure (and presumably flow)

I actually thing the same way as well. I currently have two jugs of 0w-20 PUP sitting on my table, though there is a part of me wondering if I should switch to 0w30, I have to do my mandatory annual oil change (average 3,700 miles) in a couple weeks, I'll have to decide by then.

I always send off a oil analysis sample on all my annual oil changes, I may try the higher viscosity oil and see how the results change or not,.

 

[silver billet]

My 2017 (bought new) is noticeably quieter with a decent 5-30W oil. Oil pressure at hot idle is also a bit higher. Our 2022 specs 0W-20 but I wouldn't run that either.

For anyone worried about 5W-30 vs 5W-20 (or 0W-20), a lot of -30W oils sheer down to 20W pretty quickly. If it ever came down to a dealer actually sending the oil out for testing (doubt it would go that far), unless it was brand new oil Im guessing a -30W would come back in the range of -20W anyway.

You can even use the oil that has Mopar spec, like Pennzoil, in 5W-30 and I bet it would never be noticed. In regards to lifter/cam failure, my service dept said the first thing they do is pull the valve covers and send Mopar pictures. If the engine looks like its been maintained, they almost always get a go-ahead on warranty coverage. Weight of oil doesn't come into play at all.

Just another reason to go with HPL; their oils stay in grade and do not shear down. This is backed up many UOA's, including my own. They use very high quality polymers, or none at all in the case of their NO-VII line.

 

[chris17bh]

Just another reason to go with HPL; their oils stay in grade and do not shear down. This is backed up many UOA's, including my own. They use very high quality polymers, or none at all in the case of their NO-VII line.

Id like to try it. A bit expensive for my tastes, though. I used RedLine a while ago and it was nice, but again a bit expensive, especially for the few miles I put on my truck.

Now that I have 2 Hemis in the family, it might make more sense to buy a good oil in bulk. The other option is a decent off the shelf 5W-30 that gets changed every 4K or so (which would equate to twice a year for mine, thrice a year for my son's). Even if it does shear down to 20W its still a "heavy" 20W.

 

[HSKR R/T]

Id like to try it. A bit expensive for my tastes, though. I used RedLine a while ago and it was nice, but again a bit expensive, especially for the few miles I put on my truck.

Now that I have 2 Hemis in the family, it might make more sense to buy a good oil in bulk. The other option is a decent off the shelf 5W-30 that gets changed every 4K or so (which would equate to twice a year for mine, thrice a year for my son's). Even if it does shear down to 20W its still a "heavy" 20W.

Buying oil in bulk isn't a good idea. Oil has a shelf life. It's better to buy smaller quantities and use it sooner than having it it around for several years

 

[chris17bh]

Buying oil in bulk isn't a good idea. Oil has a shelf life. It's better to buy smaller quantities and use it sooner than having it it around for several years

Yeah this wouldnt be like a 55 gallon drum.

To me, "bulk" is 2 or 3 oil changes worth for each truck when something like Mobil 1 has a rebate.

 

[boogielander]

Wonder what viscosity will be recommended when(if) a V8 returns to the RAM half ton, specially now the EPA has lost its clout. Regardless, the viscosity dilemma will continue. Use what's recommended, or go with what you think it needs. Hopefully its not 40 weight or we will have to step up to gear oil. What do people with the 6.4 do?

0-40

 

[silver billet]

Id like to try it. A bit expensive for my tastes, though. I used RedLine a while ago and it was nice, but again a bit expensive, especially for the few miles I put on my truck.

Now that I have 2 Hemis in the family, it might make more sense to buy a good oil in bulk. The other option is a decent off the shelf 5W-30 that gets changed every 4K or so (which would equate to twice a year for mine, thrice a year for my son's). Even if it does shear down to 20W its still a "heavy" 20W.

HPL's basic PCMO is probably cheaper/quart than Redline at this point. They do have more expensive oils, their "super car" is quite pricey but PCMO is still better than anything else and is all we need (it even carries the "meets or exceeds MS6395" label if you like that kind of thing)

You can order it by 12 qts, 4 * 1 gallon jugs, or in a 5 gallon pail.

Also keep in mind that in theory you should be able to run this oil far longer than anything else out there, Redline included. I don't, even though the UOA's come back with lots of life left in the oil. The oil itself is cheaper than many other off the shelf oils when used to full potential. I just won't do that in a hemi.

 

[chris17bh]

HPL's basic PCMO is probably cheaper/quart than Redline at this point. They do have more expensive oils, their "super car" is quite pricey but PCMO is still better than anything else and is all we need (it even carries the "meets or exceeds MS6395" label if you like that kind of thing)

You can order it by 12 qts, 4 * 1 gallon jugs, or in a 5 gallon pail.

Also keep in mind that in theory you should be able to run this oil far longer than anything else out there, Redline included. I don't, even though the UOA's come back with lots of life left in the oil. The oil itself is cheaper than many other off the shelf oils when used to full potential. I just won't do that in a hemi.

That was my dilemma with RedLine. I put about 6K miles/yr on my truck. Do I spend the money on RedLine, HPL, etc and run it for over a year? Or do I spend (far) less on a decent 5W-30 (chosen by checking VOAs, UOAs, etc) and change it twice a year?

Id hate to drain RedLine or HPL without ever getting even close to its useable life, but don't feel comfortable leaving the same oil in the truck for over a year, mostly because it will be driven through extremes of cold and hot in that timeframe. I prefer changing before the extreme cold or hot, so I change in May and late October (here in Connecticut its before it gets hot and cold)

 

[Montana_]

Thoughts on the Valvoline Restore and Protect (VRP)? Seems to be getting some really good reviews from guys keen on taking their valve covers off to inspect for sludge and what not.

I've just been using PUP but the past couple changes it's been just regular PP because the price on PUP skyrocketed when I was looking to buy in bulk. It's very ticky. Not fond of it at all. I still have two changes of PP left but I'm not even sure I want to use it with how noisy it's been. I'm either going with VRP or PUP again. The VRP is currently a little cheaper than PUP.

But I'm no stranger to the tick. I've had multiple FORD's that love to sound like diesels, especially the 5.4L. I'd like to avoid having to rebuild every 30-50k again Crazy thing is some tick and do just fine but I'm hearing it already at 30k and it worries me.

I bought some of that VRP and things were pretty quiet. Granted, I'm using 0W-20 too, so basically water, which also worries me.

 

[silver billet]

That was my dilemma with RedLine. I put about 6K miles/yr on my truck. Do I spend the money on RedLine, HPL, etc and run it for over a year? Or do I spend (far) less on a decent 5W-30 (chosen by checking VOAs, UOAs, etc) and change it twice a year?

Id hate to drain RedLine or HPL without ever getting even close to its useable life, but don't feel comfortable leaving the same oil in the truck for over a year, mostly because it will be driven through extremes of cold and hot in that timeframe. I prefer changing before the extreme cold or hot, so I change in May and late October (here in Connecticut its before it gets hot and cold)

Once a year is more than fine with that mileage on HPL's oils. Guys on bitog are doing 24k mile intervals over like 2+ years IIRC. I haven't seen that tried with Redline other oils, I doubt they'd stand up like that.

I don't know where you live, the 5w-30 might not be the best choice in extremely cold conditions but then I'd just run a 0w-30 all year around instead.

 

[silver billet]

Thoughts on the Valvoline Restore and Protect (VRP)? Seems to be getting some really good reviews from guys keen on taking their valve covers off to inspect for sludge and what not.

I've just been using PUP but the past couple changes it's been just regular PP because the price on PUP skyrocketed when I was looking to buy in bulk. It's very ticky. Not fond of it at all. I still have two changes of PP left but I'm not even sure I want to use it with how noisy it's been. I'm either going with VRP or PUP again. The VRP is currently a little cheaper than PUP.

But I'm no stranger to the tick. I've had multiple FORD's that love to sound like diesels, especially the 5.4L. I'd like to avoid having to rebuild every 30-50k again Crazy thing is some tick and do just fine but I'm hearing it already at 30k and it worries me.

I bought some of that VRP and things were pretty quiet. Granted, I'm using 0W-20 too, so basically water, which also worries me.

VRP cleans very well, that is not up for debate, the pictures prove that. But I suspect it's a one trick pony. HPL has the cleaning aspect covered (it cleans so well they have a dedicated "cleaner" product which cleans slower than their actual oil because their oil can clean too much too fast and overload the filter). But HPL does so much more than just clean well. Comparing VRP to HPL, they are at completely different price points, they are not the same quality product by any stretch IMHO. And the real deal breaker is it can't be purchased in Canada anyway, HPL I can ship across the border.