Is the Hemi truly flawed by design?

[Flynhayn]

Normally I'd agree with you. But if you search youtube there are tons of videos showing the cam and lifter issues; cam is lobbed off, lifter rollers are ceased, lifters show grinding marks, there seems to be a definite oil starvation issue. This guy is simply giving an expert opinion as to why it's happening, the fact that it IS happening seems to be well accepted by now (especially among cops which idle them for long periods of time)

For what it's worth, I had a 2003 Ram 5.7 Hemi with 193,000 miles and was still running strong when I traded it in for my 2020 Ram 5.7. I used any 5w-30 fully synthetic oil and any filter on sale. Changed oil every 10,000 miles. Ran 87 octane gas it's whole life. I was very happy with my 03 and ran it quite hard. Hoping for the same with my 2020 Big Horn 4x4 QC.

 

[PowerJrod]

Wouldn’t the engine have already failed then?

Thank you! That's what I was saying!

 

[PowerJrod]

Weird....I was just reading up on the generations of Hemi engines. According to Chrysler...the last redesign of the Hemi engine was in 2009 where they added VVT. They mentioned that nothing in design since then has changed ....only some of the build materials. (didn't specify which parts or anything though) I guess it Is getting a little outdated lol.

 

[Willwork4truck]

Like I’ve said before, time to upgun it with 30-50 more hp and tq so that we have a higher power option. Since we can’t get the 6.4 in our 1500’s, there’s nothing we can choose short of expensive mods.
Cmon’ FCA, spend a few bucks on engineering and give us a stronger engine to fight off GM, Toyota and Ford!

 

[silver billet]

Before Trump, I would have said "the writings on the wall, the Hemi is dead." Now I'm not so sure. But there is a very good chance the Hemi will just end it's production in a few years and be replaced by turbos.

Enjoy it while you can!

 

[WXman]

This and you have people out there running the oil wight their grandpa told them about instead of what the manual says.

Add to that, the Internet is famous for a hand full of people with problems seem like everyone has the problem.

I actually have found that the specified oil weight is actually the problem on newer engines. Auto makers switched engines that were originally spec'd with 5W30 oils to 5W20 or 0W20 oils with NO changes to the engine. It was purely a fuel efficiency move to save EPA fines and to do better in CAFE scores. They're mass producing these vehicles, so every 0.1 MPG they can save is big $$$ for them. And at the end of the day, once you hit the end of warranty period, which almost every engine can easily do, it's your baby at that point. The automaker doesn't care. So, they spec these new watery 0W20 oils for their own benefit, and the consumer gets screwed.

I've seen this myself on a Ford V8. They switched from 5W30 to 5W20 over the life span of engine production, and when I did oil analysis comparisons I noticed that wear metals decreased significantly in the oil with the 5W30. In fact, analysis showed that a 5W40 would have likely been healthier and would have produced the most mileage from the engine.

"I got 119,000 miles on my Hemi. No problems." So what? Maybe a 250k engine would have gone 350k on proper weight oil. It's all relative.

 

[silver billet]

Exactly. Longevity is at odds with fuel efficiency, don't automatically assume the 5w-20 oil rating is there for longevity reasons. Considering past history of the Hemi, it's more than likely there for MPG reasons, and that rating is hurting the lifetime of the engine.

 

[SpeedyV]

Well...with my Lifetime MaxCare warranty, I'll be following FCA recommendations. If I have the truck long enough to need a new engine due to lubricant-related failure, I'll let y'all know. I have a feeling that may be after this forum has come and gone...

 

[HoosierTrooper]

5W-30 is only around 2 cSt thicker that XW-20 at operating temperature so it is also "watery" thin. In fact the, SN+/GF-5 Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 was shown to have a kinetic viscosity at 212F of 9.8 cSt on the Pennzoil website, the minimum cSt to be rated as a 30 grade is 9.3 cSt so it was just barely out of the 20 grade range and after a few thousand miles was probably sheared down into a 20 grade. I would take a well formulated XW-20 over a mediocre 5W-30 any day of the week.

As I mentioned elsewhere on here 5W-30 was developed in the mid 80's solely to help the auto manufacturers meet EPA gas mileage standards that the popular 10W-40 couldn't provide. 5W-30 turned out to be a good idea back then and XW-20 has also proven to work very well over the last 20 years.

 

[silver billet]

5W-30 is only around 2 cSt thicker that XW-20 at operating temperature so it is also "watery" thin. In fact the, SN+/GF-5 Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 was shown to have a kinetic viscosity at 212F of 9.8 cSt on the Pennzoil website, the minimum cSt to be rated as a 30 grade is 9.3 cSt so it was just barely out of the 20 grade range and after a few thousand miles was probably sheared down into a 20 grade. I would take a well formulated XW-20 over a mediocre 5W-30 any day of the week.

As I mentioned elsewhere on here 5W-30 was developed in the mid 80's solely to help the auto manufacturers meet EPA gas mileage standards that the popular 10W-40 couldn't provide. 5W-30 turned out to be a good idea back then and XW-20 has also proven to work very well over the last 20 years.

Well, the theory is the theory ("5W-30 is only around 2 cSt thicker"); how do you explain wxman's findings above then? That "wear metals decreased significantly in the oil with the 5W30"? He is not the only one to make such claims either.

 

[WXman]

If a good 5W30 is sheared down to the 20 range after a few thousand miles, then a 20-weight oil would shear down to the 10 range in the same time period? Well, not exactly due to chemistry, but close.

Like I said, Blackstone Labs analysis I was doing on a 4.6L Ford V8 that had a 5W20 spec showed that a 5W40 would have put me in the better range for numbers. I was doing 5,000ish mile oil cycles at that point. Wear metals decreased in the oil, and I also noticed that the engine would burn less oil between changes with higher viscosity. I wish I had kept it longer....would have been neat to start doing some 5W40 cycles and analysis to see what happened.

Granted, that's not a Hemi engine. But there are some similarities.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

I'm not sure what theory you're talkng about, but all of the oil producers post the certifications, ratings and basic info about their products. The published viscosity for most 5W-30 oils is between 10 and 11 cSt, and for most XW-20 oils it's between 8 and 9 cSt, that's at 212F (100C). That's not a theory it's a fact because each grade has minimum and maximum cSt that the oil has to fall between to receive the grade rating.

UOA's are a lot of fun to read and compare and try to pick apart, but inexpensive ones like Blackstone offers are very limited in determining "wear" in an engine. I'll answer your question with a question, how do you explain all of the "good" UOA's from owners using XW-20 oils in their trucks across all of the brands? And there are people on this site that have reported very high mileage using nothing but 5W-20 during the whole life of the vehicle.

Our patrol Chargers are taken out of service after they reach 200,000 miles and get 5W-20 recycled oil their whole life. I asked one of our mechanics about the cam/lifter issue and he said the last one he sent to a dealership for it was a 2015, he's seen none since model year 2016. That gave me the confidence to buy a RAM and I will use nothing but 5W-20 synthetic in it.

I'm not arguing that using a thicker grade oil in some conditions might be wise, just keep in mind that 5W-30 is also a very thin oil and is only slightly thicker in most cases than XW-20. Depending on how it's formulated a 5W-30 may have a higher viscosity index improver content which makes them more shear prone than a synthetic 5W-20 which will have considerably less or maybe even none. And 0W-20 oils are almost always full synthetic and are made out of the best base stock available to the formulator so they tend to be very, very good oils.

Here is an article written by Doug Hillary, a real expert on oil and UOA interpretation, that fully explains the limitation on used oil analysis.

Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy

UOAs are a great tool in the Management of any machinery that uses liquid lubricants. Unfortunately, their real value is often misunderstood by those who contribute to BITOG. Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

 

[CaptainCJ35]

I'd love to see some data on oil related cam issues vs the number of VVT and VVT/MDS 5.7 hemi engines. Between Ram's, Grand Cherokee/Durango's, and Charger/Challenger/300's we're talking hundreds and hundreds of thousands of engines.

I get a feeling that if it affects 2% of engines produced, that's still a couple thousand examples, which in the current age we're living in makes it seem like it's happening all the time.

I have experience with a well documented oil/premature wear problem from a European auto manufacturer. Very tight tolerances, very thick oil, baffled oil pans, and overly long warm up times all contributed to the problem. The potential issue with the 5.7 HEMI doesn't feel like that at all.

 

[vdemarco]

Our patrol Chargers are taken out of service after they reach 200,000 miles and get 5W-20 recycled oil their whole life. I asked one of our mechanics about the cam/lifter issue and he said the last one he sent to a dealership for it was a 2015, he's seen none since model year 2016. That gave me the confidence to buy a RAM and I will use nothing but 5W-20 synthetic in it.

Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy

UOAs are a great tool in the Management of any machinery that uses liquid lubricants. Unfortunately, their real value is often misunderstood by those who contribute to BITOG. Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

this is the same info i found googling around. in my wifes 2011 durango, i usually put in heavier oil because, i forgot at the store which thickness it needed.

I am going to continue put in the heavier weight oil in the 2011 durango, since it has 80,000 miles and is pretty much out of warranty. I agree with everything you said, but by putting the thicker oil in i fell better. (feeling is important here too)

THanks for posting this.

 

[silver billet]

I'm not sure what theory you're talkng about, but all of the oil producers post the certifications, ratings and basic info about their products. The published viscosity for most 5W-30 oils is between 10 and 11 cSt, and for most XW-20 oils it's between 8 and 9 cSt, that's at 212F (100C). That's not a theory it's a fact because each grade has minimum and maximum cSt that the oil has to fall between to receive the grade rating.

UOA's are a lot of fun to read and compare and try to pick apart, but inexpensive ones like Blackstone offers are very limited in determining "wear" in an engine. I'll answer your question with a question, how do you explain all of the "good" UOA's from owners using XW-20 oils in their trucks across all of the brands? And there are people on this site that have reported very high mileage using nothing but 5W-20 during the whole life of the vehicle.

Our patrol Chargers are taken out of service after they reach 200,000 miles and get 5W-20 recycled oil their whole life. I asked one of our mechanics about the cam/lifter issue and he said the last one he sent to a dealership for it was a 2015, he's seen none since model year 2016. That gave me the confidence to buy a RAM and I will use nothing but 5W-20 synthetic in it.

I'm not arguing that using a thicker grade oil in some conditions might be wise, just keep in mind that 5W-30 is also a very thin oil and is only slightly thicker in most cases than XW-20. Depending on how it's formulated a 5W-30 may have a higher viscosity index improver content which makes them more shear prone than a synthetic 5W-20 which will have considerably less or maybe even none. And 0W-20 oils are almost always full synthetic and are made out of the best base stock available to the formulator so they tend to be very, very good oils.

Here is an article written by Doug Hillary, a real expert on oil and UOA interpretation, that fully explains the limitation on used oil analysis.

Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy

UOAs are a great tool in the Management of any machinery that uses liquid lubricants. Unfortunately, their real value is often misunderstood by those who contribute to BITOG. Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their...

www.bobistheoilguy.com

I think the thicker oil idea comes from two places; first that was either the accepted or recommended viscosity on the hemi (maybe the 6.2 or 6.4) at one point, before the MDS. Secondly, there are a number of BITOG threads, or in other forums, where specifically the Redline 5w-30 has proven time and time again to reduce or eliminate lifter noise. Nobody knows whether it's the viscosity (RL 5w-30 is a little thicker than even other 5w-30's if I remember correctly), or whether it's an additive like Moly which is helping.

But I have yet to read of anybody with problems, that were solved by going to 5w-20. Many many stories going the other way to 5w-30 (redline and some others) where it was posted that it helped.

So whether it's just a problem that affects a subset of hemi's, I don't know. But I know that my engine is the noisiest v8 I've ever heard. I hear ticking (either lifters or exhaust) from inside the cabin with all windows closed when I get on the pedal. It's not a smooth running v8, it has way too much "metallic chatter".

I have run synthetic 5w-20 since the first oil change (which was done after 3000 km), oil was from the FCA dealer. I'm going to try Redline 5w-30 + Royal Purple oil filter for next oil change, and if my engine sound improves, I will have no choice to accept the evidence in front of my ears But by the amount of stories I read, I'm definitely expecting an improvement.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

this is the same info i found googling around. in my wifes 2011 durango, i usually put in heavier oil because, i forgot at the store which thickness it needed.

I am going to continue put in the heavier weight oil in the 2011 durango, since it has 80,000 miles and is pretty much out of warranty. I agree with everything you said, but by putting the thicker oil in i fell better. (feeling is important here too)

THanks for posting this.

Yeah I agree, how we feel about our maintenance choices is important. I wax my cars several times a year, even though I know they have clearcoat on them, but I "feel" like it helps protect the paint.

 

[HoosierTrooper]

I think the thicker oil idea comes from two places; first that was either the accepted or recommended viscosity on the hemi (maybe the 6.2 or 6.4) at one point, before the MDS. Secondly, there are a number of BITOG threads, or in other forums, where specifically the Redline 5w-30 has proven time and time again to reduce or eliminate lifter noise. Nobody knows whether it's the viscosity (RL 5w-30 is a little thicker than even other 5w-30's if I remember correctly), or whether it's an additive like Moly which is helping.

But I have yet to read of anybody with problems, that were solved by going to 5w-20. Many many stories going the other way to 5w-30 (redline and some others) where it was posted that it helped.

So whether it's just a problem that affects a subset of hemi's, I don't know. But I know that my engine is the noisiest v8 I've ever heard. I hear ticking (either lifters or exhaust) from inside the cabin with all windows closed when I get on the pedal. It's not a smooth running v8, it has way too much "metallic chatter".

I have run synthetic 5w-20 since the first oil change (which was done after 3000 km), oil was from the FCA dealer. I'm going to try Redline 5w-30 + Royal Purple oil filter for next oil change, and if my engine sound improves, I will have no choice to accept the evidence in front of my ears But by the amount of stories I read, I'm definitely expecting an improvement.

You're probably right about why some feel they need a thicker oil, and like I said there could be times it would be wise to go up a grade if you're trying to solve a problem. Redline makes very, very good oil no question about it. I looked at their site and for the top of the line 5W-30 it show a viscosity of 11.9 and an HTHS of 3.7, that's getting close to a 40 grade. Of course Redline is also very, very expensive. The companies like Valvoline, Mobil etc have to produce a product that meets the manufacturers requirements, works satisfactorily, and is readily available at a price the average person is willing to pay. Redline is a niche oil that not everyone is willing to pay for. I hope it solves your problem, but obviously if it's the manifold bolts no oil is going to fix that.

As far as 5W-20 solving a problem, I look more at how many millions of vehicles are out there running on XW-20 that aren't having any problems. XW-20 oils have been mainstream for 20 years now in virtually every make of vehicle, does anyone honestly believe huge numbers of engines are failing prematurely because of it? XW-20 oils of today are so much better than 5W-30 oils from a few years ago.

My owners manual recommends 5W-30 synthetic oil for the 2.0L turbo in my 19 Jeep Cherokee. I assume FCA went with 5W-30 because it met their requirements while providing a little better gas mileage at the same time to help them meet CAFE, instead of a slightly thicker XW-40 synthetic that might provide slightly better protection at slightly lower mileage. And obviously FCA didn't believe XW-20 was an appropriate grade for this engine, while they do for others in their lineup.

What I'd like to see is someone post something like " I dumped that watery thin, CAFE mandated 5W-20 and replaced it with watery thin, CAFE mandated 5W-30 and I'll get a million miles because of it!"

 

[PowerJrod]

Being out of warranty I wouldn't absolutely use 5w30. But until that warranty runs out ..I'll stick with what they tell me to put in

 

[silver billet]

You're probably right about why some feel they need a thicker oil, and like I said there could be times it would be wise to go up a grade if you're trying to solve a problem. Redline makes very, very good oil no question about it. I looked at their site and for the top of the line 5W-30 it show a viscosity of 11.9 and an HTHS of 3.7, that's getting close to a 40 grade. Of course Redline is also very, very expensive. The companies like Valvoline, Mobil etc have to produce a product that meets the manufacturers requirements, works satisfactorily, and is readily available at a price the average person is willing to pay. Redline is a niche oil that not everyone is willing to pay for. I hope it solves your problem, but obviously if it's the manifold bolts no oil is going to fix that.

As far as 5W-20 solving a problem, I look more at how many millions of vehicles are out there running on XW-20 that aren't having any problems. XW-20 oils have been mainstream for 20 years now in virtually every make of vehicle, does anyone honestly believe huge numbers of engines are failing prematurely because of it? XW-20 oils of today are so much better than 5W-30 oils from a few years ago.

My owners manual recommends 5W-30 synthetic oil for the 2.0L turbo in my 19 Jeep Cherokee. I assume FCA went with 5W-30 because it met their requirements while providing a little better gas mileage at the same time to help them meet CAFE, instead of a slightly thicker XW-40 synthetic that might provide slightly better protection at slightly lower mileage. And obviously FCA didn't believe XW-20 was an appropriate grade for this engine, while they do for others in their lineup.

What I'd like to see is someone post something like " I dumped that watery thin, CAFE mandated 5W-20 and replaced it with watery thin, CAFE mandated 5W-30 and I'll get a million miles because of it!"

I don't know what my issue is, to be honest. Took it to the dealer and they said "nothing to see here, move along". So I'm left figuring it out myself, and an oilchange seems like the perfect opportunity to test whether it's oil/lifter related or exhaust. If I don't notice any differece on redline, then I'll take it to a mechanic I trust and pay for them to look at the manifold or exhaust. I just picked up (30 mins ago) Redline oil at 45% sale price, so the test is hardly costing me anything.

Now I just need to find an oil change garage where the guys don't pressure wash your interior first (covid fleas I guess). Local dealer, without asking, just pressure washed the interior of my brother's Ram with leather inside and everything, brother melted down in front of them and they deserve it, these guys need their Ram license yanked.

 

[silver billet]

Being out of warranty I wouldn't absolutely use 5w30. But until that warranty runs out ..I'll stick with what they tell me to put in

I can't find the manual back anymore, but I believe at one point the Hemi's used in our trucks, during one or more years (maybe it was the 2500), the manual stated "5w-30 can be used", it's "acceptable" etc etc. Forget the verbiage. Kind of like 89 octane is preferred but 87 is acceptable.