What could cause this damage to the cam???

[ChadAllen]

Got an odd one. I had the hemi tick. Once I was sure it wasn't exhaust, I set about pulling the cylinder head. The valvetrain was fine, no bent push rods, no obvious signs of wear, even the valves looked surprisingly good.
I pulled out the lifters, expecting to see a seized roller.... but no. To my surprise every single roller looked great. No flat spots, no wiggle up/down or side to side, no gritty feeling, all the needles were present. They looked fine.
So I sent a borescope down to inspect the cam lobes.
Here is what I saw on the far back lobe on cylinder 8.



And here is the lifter pulled from that same hole




Again, the lifter is fine. No gouges, no flat spots, no play in the bearing, nothing. What could cause that type of damage to the cam? It almost looks etched. That's not the typical damage you see when a cam lob wears down. I've shown it to three different mechanic friends of mine and none of us can figure out how that could have happened without the lifter being effed. What do the experts here think?

For reference: the engine has 72,000 miles. I'm the only owner and I have changed the oil every 5k with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. I knew going in that idling was an issue with this engine, so I never let it sit and idle longer than a red light. Correct oil, correct change interval, correct operation.

Also, ignore the date on the photos. I never bothered to set that up on the borescope.

 

[dajogejr]

First thought is installation at factory, done wrong, causing that.
You’d think…it would smooth over after wear in, but it didn’t.
Second thought, are these cams cast or forged?
If cast…possible improper casting at factory?

Here’s what would really bake my noodle…. Is that the actual cause of the tick..or something else.

 

[stevieb92]

To my untrained eye, it sort of looks like spalling. I'm a mechanical engineer, but I'm not an expert forensic engineer. Here's a link to some common failure modes and descriptions. It is certainly interesting to note that the width of the spalling appears to be exactly the same width as the roller on the lifter.

What's the difference between brinelling, spalling, and fretting?

 

[Cbty2050]

We see this a lot in the field, this one is very bad. Most only have some flaking on lobes. We explain it to most customers as delaminated/cam casting failure or cam lobe flaking. 99% of people will understand those that for what it is. Still need cam and lifters to fix properly.

I have asked many people at Stellantis if we actually have a cam casting issue vs a lifter issue. This is more common than the lifter failure. I will remove a wiped out camshaft for lifter failure/noise and yes a lobe will be worn off, I will almost always find 1 or 2 more lobes that look like that or similar.

 

[Rick3478]

View attachment 184330

View attachment 184332

Looks like spalling. Roller lifters concentrate the load, almost to a point, compared to old school flat tappets that tend to spread it out. If alloy and heat treat aren't right, surface deformation can fatigue the metal and cause it to flake off over time. May have been a poor batch of metal or problem with the heat treat process.

 

[bigdodge]

for anyone not wanting to look up the posters truck here it is
"My 2019 5.7 4wd recently started that infamous ticking. I'm trying to narrow down the source before I commit to tearing things apart. The only Ram dealer in town is a piece of work and I'm out of warranty (71k miles) so I'll be doing it myself. Any help with diagnosis would.."

 

[ChadAllen]

for anyone not wanting to look up the posters truck here it is
"My 2019 5.7 4wd recently started that infamous ticking. I'm trying to narrow down the source before I commit to tearing things apart. The only Ram dealer in town is a piece of work and I'm out of warranty (71k miles) so I'll be doing it myself. Any help with diagnosis would.."

Thanks. I was going to put all this in that thread, but figured the unusual damage outside of what most people talk about with the cams here was worth it's own thread.
But yea, this has been a long process full of dealer shenanigans, Mopar shipping issues and a roller coaster of hope and despair...... just to find it was a manufacturer defect in the metal of the cam.
If this defect is as common as the techs above say, Stellantis should be doing SOMETHING to make it right. Just ignoring it and blaming the customer for "idling too much" is just a slap in the face.

 

[ChadAllen]

Appreciate the insight, friends. I've heard of spalling (in general terms, not specific to these cams) But still seemed bizarre the pit would be that defined and not cause any damage to the roller.... yet.
Has Mopar updated or changed suppliers for the oem cams to fix that casting defect?

Also, I've read tons of stories of people replacing cam and lifters just to have them fail again in a few hundred miles (or less) presumably because metal from the old cam was still in there. Anyway to make sure I get all that old metal out if I decide to proceed with the repair? Updating to performance cams and doing all sorts of mods are a bit out of my price range/expertise so I'm having to stick with basic oem replacements.

Appreciate everyone!

 

[stevieb92]

If it is indeed a defect in the cam material, I would seek out a different manufacturer that has similar cam specs to OEM. My choices would be Comp Cams, Crower, etc before putting an OEM cam back in with the same failure potentially happening again down the road.

 

[Jedi9]

This is one of the few times I would get an oil analysis. If its contaminated maybe drop the pan and clean it out. New cam, new oil, run 100 miles and send off for another analysis. If still bad change oil and filter again, and repeat until all clear.

 

[bigdodge]

Thanks. I was going to put all this in that thread, but figured the unusual damage outside of what most people talk about with the cams here was worth it's own thread.
But yea, this has been a long process full of dealer shenanigans, Mopar shipping issues and a roller coaster of hope and despair...... just to find it was a manufacturer defect in the metal of the cam.
If this defect is as common as the techs above say, Stellantis should be doing SOMETHING to make it right. Just ignoring it and blaming the customer for "idling too much" is just a slap in the face.

it makes it easier if you have everything in your signature
like below

 

[Cbty2050]

Here is one from today, lifter on these lobes are fine no damage. Cam is degrading/flaking/failing. This is from a 2016 DS 5.7.

 

[ChadAllen]

Here is one from today, lifter in these lobes are fine no damage. Cam is degrading/flaking/failing. This is from a 2016 DS 5.7.

That is genuinely infuriating. I love these trucks, but the company making them is absolute garbage. I can't support a company that churns out bad parts and then abandons their customers.

All vehicles have problems, but some manufacturers stand behind their product more than others. That alone is why I'm leaving Ram.

 

[silver billet]

Here is one from today, lifter in these lobes are fine no damage. Cam is degrading/flaking/failing. This is from a 2016 DS 5.7.

How often do you see high mileage hemis (say, 175k + miles) with 0 issues?

 

[Reverse]

That is genuinely infuriating. I love these trucks, but the company making them is absolute garbage. I can't support a company that churns out bad parts and then abandons their customers.

All vehicles have problems, but some manufacturers stand behind their product more than others. That alone is why I'm leaving Ram.

I agree, and this is the reason I got an extended warranty for the trucks I bought from them. This effectively forces them to stand behind their product. Our 2014 needed new cams; I was told it would have been a $5000 repair if I hadn't had the extended warranty. That paid for the extended warranty 2 times over.

I just factor it into the price of the truck when comparing with other brands and models. Which is one of the reasons I will not buy another truck from them. They now basically charge more than Toyota, while delivering an inferior product.

 

[irishwake63]

play in the lifter?

 

[ChadAllen]

play in the lifter?

Zip. No play at all. Rolls smooth too with no grit in the bearing. Truck sat parked for several days before I pulled the lifters and they were still WELL coated with oil when I pulled them.

I can record a video of the lifters when I get home from work to show ya.

 

[Cbty2050]

How often do you see high mileage hemis (say, 175k + miles) with 0 issues?

I assume you mean engine issues. I have worked on two this week, one 2021 had 225k miles Working on a 2020 with 180k miles with little maintenance done. Engine is quiet as a Hemi can be.

 

[bullitt_60]

If it is indeed a defect in the cam material, I would seek out a different manufacturer that has similar cam specs to OEM. My choices would be Comp Cams, Crower, etc before putting an OEM cam back in with the same failure potentially happening again down the road.

I don't know if it makes a difference as I know Comp and Lunati have been having lots of material failures/wiped cams. I know it has always been an issue or risk but it seems to have skyrocketed since the pandemic.

 

[bullitt_60]

They now basically charge more than Toyota, while delivering an inferior product.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60992514/toyota-tundra-lexus-lx-engine-recall/