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H/K audio upgrade - VAST Improvment

Brunzca

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For those that are using aftermarket amp and DSP, are you still using the center channel or have you just eliminated it altogether?

Also, are you running 11 ch amp configurations to all the existing speaker locations or just bypassing certain ones?
No- eliminated,
8 channels run by combo DSP/Amp + mono sub amp.

Pac ap4-ch41 (r2), APHCH42 expansion harness, APH-CH03.
factory speaker wires.
center channel and rear doors left unconnected to DSP.
Dash - mids
tweet and mid bass in front doors.
rear fill in rear roof
2x10 subs run off mono amp, controlled by remote/line out from DSP.
 

wildh24

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No- eliminated,
8 channels run by combo DSP/Amp + mono sub amp.

Pac ap4-ch41 (r2), APHCH42 expansion harness, APH-CH03.
factory speaker wires.
center channel and rear doors left unconnected to DSP.
Dash - mids
tweet and mid bass in front doors.
rear fill in rear roof
2x10 subs run off mono amp, controlled by remote/line out from DSP.

This is similar to what I'm leaning towards but using the JBL 8 channel DSP amp to power entire front stage, and a 4 channel amp to power the rear. I'd assume 40w/ch is more than what the factory amp is putting out and having total control over every speaker would be nice.
 

Brunzca

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This is similar to what I'm leaning towards but using the JBL 8 channel DSP amp to power entire front stage, and a 4 channel amp to power the rear. I'd assume 40w/ch is more than what the factory amp is putting out and having total control over every speaker would be nice.
I’m running a helix v8, which puts out 75w @ 4ohms per channel, it’s enough for me - but I could have gone higher. Lol. If you have it tuned right, the center image negates the need for a center channel speaker in a single seat tune (a center speaker actually screws up the imaging). And rear speakers do the same. The rears can give you that “surround sound” feel, but you can’t really balance them with the front image, so the clarity is off - If you are going for a true SQ system. The other thing to consider is that if you just get an amp to power the rear, you won’t be able to tune it like you do the front with the dsp, so the sound from the rears will be way off from the front, acoustically, if that makes sense. are you keeping the factory sub, or upgrading there? If you’re getting new subs, consider that you’ll need an amp for that, too. Then you start running into space constraints, how many cables you would need to run for 3 amps (dsp, rear, sub, etc)
 

wildh24

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No- eliminated,
8 channels run by combo DSP/Amp + mono sub amp.

Pac ap4-ch41 (r2), APHCH42 expansion harness, APH-CH03.
factory speaker wires.
center channel and rear doors left unconnected to DSP.
Dash - mids
tweet and mid bass in front doors.
rear fill in rear roof
2x10 subs run off mono amp, controlled by remote/line out from DSP.


I’m running a helix v8, which puts out 75w @ 4ohms per channel, it’s enough for me - but I could have gone higher. Lol. If you have it tuned right, the center image negates the need for a center channel speaker in a single seat tune (a center speaker actually screws up the imaging). And rear speakers do the same. The rears can give you that “surround sound” feel, but you can’t really balance them with the front image, so the clarity is off - If you are going for a true SQ system. The other thing to consider is that if you just get an amp to power the rear, you won’t be able to tune it like you do the front with the dsp, so the sound from the rears will be way off from the front, acoustically, if that makes sense. are you keeping the factory sub, or upgrading there? If you’re getting new subs, consider that you’ll need an amp for that, too. Then you start running into space constraints, how many cables you would need to run for 3 amps (dsp, rear, sub, etc)

So you're not running the center or rear doors at all?

Suppose that's an option for me. The rear door does tend to be a source of an occasional rattle.for me and can be annoying.

I am running a PAC Ampro to feed 2 10" jl subs in an enclosure I made to fit under the rear seat. Unplugged factory Sub which is just bad. Amp is a pioneer 8701 which is surprisingly good for the $$.

In the doors I have infinity reference 6x9 component and infinity reference 3.5s. The 6x9s seem to run well off of factory power but can almost be too much. I have to adjust the EQ on the dash way down to compensate and am wondering what that is doing to the overall EQ curve. Factory xover settings seem to be around 500hz for the 3.5s and 6x9s.

On the dash and rear headliner I've been experimenting with different 3.5s (faital pros, nvx, skar, Polk, infinity, and Kicker ks). I actually like the kicker ks for SQ the best, but feel they could use more power than what the stock amp can provide not to mention it'd be nice to have more functional over the factory set crossovers and EQ. My second favorite are actually the nvx, but they tend to push a couple frequencies a bit more than I like. Volume wise the nvx are very similar to the infinity despite a lower sensitivity rating. The KS seem to be a nice fairly flat mellow sounding speaker that doesn't start cracking vocals or any cymblance. I could see how some might find them boring but I am just sensitive to upper fx ranges and don't like it when speakers break up notes that aren't supposed to. Would love to give morels a try but they only make a 4". The Polk 4" could maybe have been to work in the dash, but would've required more mod than I wanted to go through for what may have been minimal gain.

If I did go DSP route, I'd probably end up with a 3rd amp (maybe the 4 ch infinity or JBL with DSP) to finish out the rear. Suppose I could just go helix v12 and do it all in one, but the price is a bit prohibitive.
 

Brunzca

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So you're not running the center or rear doors at all?

Suppose that's an option for me. The rear door does tend to be a source of an occasional rattle.for me and can be annoying.

I am running a PAC Ampro to feed 2 10" jl subs in an enclosure I made to fit under the rear seat. Unplugged factory Sub which is just bad. Amp is a pioneer 8701 which is surprisingly good for the $$.

In the doors I have infinity reference 6x9 component and infinity reference 3.5s. The 6x9s seem to run well off of factory power but can almost be too much. I have to adjust the EQ on the dash way down to compensate and am wondering what that is doing to the overall EQ curve. Factory xover settings seem to be around 500hz for the 3.5s and 6x9s.

On the dash and rear headliner I've been experimenting with different 3.5s (faital pros, nvx, skar, Polk, infinity, and Kicker ks). I actually like the kicker ks for SQ the best, but feel they could use more power than what the stock amp can provide not to mention it'd be nice to have more functional over the factory set crossovers and EQ. My second favorite are actually the nvx, but they tend to push a couple frequencies a bit more than I like. Volume wise the nvx are very similar to the infinity despite a lower sensitivity rating. The KS seem to be a nice fairly flat mellow sounding speaker that doesn't start cracking vocals or any cymblance. I could see how some might find them boring but I am just sensitive to upper fx ranges and don't like it when speakers break up notes that aren't supposed to. Would love to give morels a try but they only make a 4". The Polk 4" could maybe have been to work in the dash, but would've required more mod than I wanted to go through for what may have been minimal gain.

If I did go DSP route, I'd probably end up with a 3rd amp (maybe the 4 ch infinity or JBL with DSP) to finish out the rear. Suppose I could just go helix v12 and do it all in one, but the price is a bit prohibitive.
Nope. Center and rear doors aren’t connected to anything. Not even the factory amp. The center channel is a complete waste, IMO, for a SQ set up. You’ll chase your tail trying to get the response cleanl. And if you hear a good tune without it, youll swear all the sound comes from the center, anyway. My other suggestion - don’t spend a lot of $ on the rear headliners, I still have the stocks. You can barely hear them anyway. as I said, they are only for rear fill, which in my set up is basically unintelligible noise when isolated from the rest of the system. No reason to spend big $ for that, definitely spend the most on the dash and mid bass (lower doors). I have karma aspect 3s in the dash, and for the $, they are very good. I had xcelsus xxm325s in my last truck, and would love to get them again at some point, they were amazing - also reasonably priced, if you can find them. I swapped 6x9s for cdt 6.5 in the doors. Not a huge difference either way. i may upgrade to si 6.5 some day, but at this point, not wanting to drop $400+ bucks for a little more MB. I have the mid Bass xover to mids at around 350, mids to tweets at appx 3500, that’s where the curve came together best with the least eq.
 

wildh24

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Nope. Center and rear doors aren’t connected to anything. Not even the factory amp. The center channel is a complete waste, IMO, for a SQ set up. You’ll chase your tail trying to get the response cleanl. And if you hear a good tune without it, youll swear all the sound comes from the center, anyway. My other suggestion - don’t spend a lot of $ on the rear headliners, I still have the stocks. You can barely hear them anyway. as I said, they are only for rear fill, which in my set up is basically unintelligible noise when isolated from the rest of the system. No reason to spend big $ for that, definitely spend the most on the dash and mid bass (lower doors). I have karma aspect 3s in the dash, and for the $, they are very good. I had xcelsus xxm325s in my last truck, and would love to get them again at some point, they were amazing - also reasonably priced, if you can find them. I swapped 6x9s for cdt 6.5 in the doors. Not a huge difference either way. i may upgrade to si 6.5 some day, but at this point, not wanting to drop $400+ bucks for a little more MB. I have the mid Bass xover to mids at around 350, mids to tweets at appx 3500, that’s where the curve came together best with the least eq.
Great info. Thanks.

Not familiar with Karma. Hard to find info on them. Did you end up doing anything with the 3.5" in the door?
 

Brunzca

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Great info. Thanks.

Not familiar with Karma. Hard to find info on them. Did you end up doing anything with the 3.5" in the door?
Karma mobile audio - search and you will find their site. Not as widely known, but a few people swear by them. I’m in a FB group for 5th gen ram audio, and one of the guys there who does competition runs them exclusively.

I swapped the 3.5s in the door for SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeters, really good budget tweeters. I had audiofrog GB10s in my previous truck, loved them. but again, didn’t pony up $400 for tweeters this time (yet), and these sound really good.
 

wildh24

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Karma mobile audio - search and you will find their site. Not as widely known, but a few people swear by them. I’m in a FB group for 5th gen ram audio, and one of the guys there who does competition runs them exclusively.

I swapped the 3.5s in the door for SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 tweeters, really good budget tweeters. I had audiofrog GB10s in my previous truck, loved them. but again, didn’t pony up $400 for tweeters this time (yet), and these sound really good.
I'm wondering if I can get by without the door mids/tweets. It really seems those speakers don't add a ton to the overall sound profile. If I cover mine up with my hand, I barely notice they aren't there. Your thoughts?

Thinking of trying to get either the audiofrog or morel 4" into the dash. Might be tight..... Really wish one or both of them made a 3.5.
 

Brunzca

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I'm wondering if I can get by without the door mids/tweets. It really seems those speakers don't add a ton to the overall sound profile. If I cover mine up with my hand, I barely notice they aren't there. Your thoughts?

Thinking of trying to get either the audiofrog or morel 4" into the dash. Might be tight..... Really wish one or both of them made a 3.5.
I’m not sure what the crossover settings are on the stock HK system for the tweets... but, a couple things.. 1) covering them up with your hand (assuming over the door panel) doesn’t do much- they sit a little ways behind the panel, so the sound still gets out through other openings, you aren’t totally muting it. 2) tweeters are more complimentary. They only play high frequencies. The vast majority of your sound comes from your mids (dash). Unless you’re playing pink noise or something similar that is designed for a tuning purpose through the tweeter alone, you won’t hear much - since most “regular” music doesn’t have constant sound above 5000+ hz. If you don’t want to swap them out, then don’t. Nothing wrong with keeping the stock ones for now - but definitely don’t disconnect them - unless you get wide range speakers for the dash, that can handle everything from 200-20,000 hz. Then you will run a 2-way system, instead of a 3-way system, which is inferior (IMO). Additionally, the HK amp is a 3 way system, so you 100% will need a dsp to tune it for a 2-way.
4” in the dash would be really tight. The xcelsus I mentioned before is 3.7”, and it barely fit. Like, so tight it didn’t need a bracket, because it didn’t move or slide around at all. 4”, you’d have to cut the dash.
 

wildh24

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I’m not sure what the crossover settings are on the stock HK system for the tweets... but, a couple things.. 1) covering them up with your hand (assuming over the door panel) doesn’t do much- they sit a little ways behind the panel, so the sound still gets out through other openings, you aren’t totally muting it. 2) tweeters are more complimentary. They only play high frequencies. The vast majority of your sound comes from your mids (dash). Unless you’re playing pink noise or something similar that is designed for a tuning purpose through the tweeter alone, you won’t hear much - since most “regular” music doesn’t have constant sound above 5000+ hz. If you don’t want to swap them out, then don’t. Nothing wrong with keeping the stock ones for now - but definitely don’t disconnect them - unless you get wide range speakers for the dash, that can handle everything from 200-20,000 hz. Then you will run a 2-way system, instead of a 3-way system, which is inferior (IMO). Additionally, the HK amp is a 3 way system, so you 100% will need a dsp to tune it for a 2-way.
4” in the dash would be really tight. The xcelsus I mentioned before is 3.7”, and it barely fit. Like, so tight it didn’t need a bracket, because it didn’t move or slide around at all. 4”, you’d have to cut the dash.

The speaker in the door is a 2 way 3.5". I had swapped it out to an infinity reference 3.5 when I swapped the 6x9. Running a hz generator, it seems to be crossed with the 6x9 at about 500hz. Dash 3.5s are also a 2 way and seem to be crossed at the same 500hz. I don't think the door 3.5 does a whole lot other than maybe add some fill/depth?

Yeah the 4" would be tight and require some modification to the speaker mounting brackets and dash. I think it'd possible to slip part of the basket under the a pillar, but I'd have to play with it to see. Hard part would be getting an type of cutting tools in there.

I did make a slight modification to the dash areas today by adding some acoustic foam on the surfaces underneath the dash mounting areas. It did seem to make a subtle difference in tone... Essentially a touch more mellow on the mids... In a good way. I noticed the driver side was basically a big hollow opening so created a bit of basket underneath with duct tape and foam to sort of close it off. It's not air right, but just seems to keep some of the sound more isolated.
 

Brunzca

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The speaker in the door is a 2 way 3.5". I had swapped it out to an infinity reference 3.5 when I swapped the 6x9. Running a hz generator, it seems to be crossed with the 6x9 at about 500hz. Dash 3.5s are also a 2 way and seem to be crossed at the same 500hz. I don't think the door 3.5 does a whole lot other than maybe add some fill/depth?

Yeah the 4" would be tight and require some modification to the speaker mounting brackets and dash. I think it'd possible to slip part of the basket under the a pillar, but I'd have to play with it to see. Hard part would be getting an type of cutting tools in there.

I did make a slight modification to the dash areas today by adding some acoustic foam on the surfaces underneath the dash mounting areas. It did seem to make a subtle difference in tone... Essentially a touch more mellow on the mids... In a good way. I noticed the driver side was basically a big hollow opening so created a bit of basket underneath with duct tape and foam to sort of close it off. It's not air right, but just seems to keep some of the sound more isolated.
The 3.5 in the door is the exact same speaker as in the dash and the rear headliner. But, it’s crossed over in the HK system for highs. The 6x9s in the doors are midbass only, so 500 and below makes sense. The dash would be somewhere around 500-4000ish, and the 3.5 in the door would be 4000-20000. Idk exactly. It’s not for fill, it’s set as a tweeter (At least it’s supposed to be..lol). But, that 3.5 is a mid speaker, not a tweeter. So it doesn’t play like a tweeter does. Put a true tweeter in there, and it will sound differently. i specifically wanted the HK system over the Alpine when I got this truck, just because the doors were already precut and pre wired for tweets, and I run a 3-way system. I built pods for my last one to mount the tweeters in the sail panels, and it was a pita.
 

wildh24

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The 3.5 in the door is the exact same speaker as in the dash and the rear headliner. But, it’s crossed over in the HK system for highs. The 6x9s in the doors are midbass only, so 500 and below makes sense. The dash would be somewhere around 500-4000ish, and the 3.5 in the door would be 4000-20000. Idk exactly. It’s not for fill, it’s set as a tweeter (At least it’s supposed to be..lol). But, that 3.5 is a mid speaker, not a tweeter. So it doesn’t play like a tweeter does. Put a true tweeter in there, and it will sound differently. i specifically wanted the HK system over the Alpine when I got this truck, just because the doors were already precut and pre wired for tweets, and I run a 3-way system. I built pods for my last one to mount the tweeters in the sail panels, and it was a pita.
You're saying the 3.5 on the dash on the HK system is a mid only? I'd have to check again but pretty sure it's HP crossed at around 500hz with no upper LP point.
 

Brunzca

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You're saying the 3.5 on the dash on the HK system is a mid only? I'd have to check again but pretty sure it's HP crossed at around 500hz with no upper LP point.
I didn't measure them before replacing the stock amp- but if not, what's the point of even having the 3.5s in the doors? Why put them there at all if they are playing the same frequency as the dash? (not that I haven't seen plenty of pointless things done in vehicles)
 

wildh24

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I didn't measure them before replacing the stock amp- but if not, what's the point of even having the 3.5s in the doors? Why put them there at all if they are playing the same frequency as the dash? (not that I haven't seen plenty of pointless things done in vehicles)
I just went and checked. They're both essentially full range at 500hz +. I can only think it was for additional fill. I do know when you toggle the 'surround' button on the audio menu, it raises the volume slightly on the door panel and on the center channel. I'm personally not in love with that sound stage.

Is the stock amp under the driver seat? I'm going to use the PAC Ampro for signal so might even just take the factory amp out altogether unless that has functional other than stereo.
 

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I just went and checked. They're both essentially full range at 500hz +. I can only think it was for additional fill. I do know when you toggle the 'surround' button on the audio menu, it raises the volume slightly on the door panel and on the center channel. I'm personally not in love with that sound stage.

Is the stock amp under the driver seat? I'm going to use the PAC Ampro for signal so might even just take the factory amp out altogether unless that has functional other than stereo.
Weird! But good to know.

yes - the HK amp is under the drivers seat. No need to take it out. If you get the harness from PAC, it bypasses the ANC, and gives you a hookup for all the speakers without needing to remove the stock amp. the PAC harness plugs directly into the stock amp
 

wildh24

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Weird! But good to know.

yes - the HK amp is under the drivers seat. No need to take it out. If you get the harness from PAC, it bypasses the ANC, and gives you a hookup for all the speakers without needing to remove the stock amp. the PAC harness plugs directly into the stock amp
Super weird indeed.

I'll have to look how the PAC harness hooks up. My goal was to just use it for factory wiring off external amps so I don't have to run wire to door panels, etc. Would then just put the amp under seat if it fit.
 

Brunzca

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Super weird indeed.

I'll have to look how the PAC harness hooks up. My goal was to just use it for factory wiring off external amps so I don't have to run wire to door panels, etc. Would then just put the amp under seat if it fit.
pac harness… there are three plugs going into the stock amp (two 22 pin, and one 10 pin). You unplug those, connect them to the pac harness, then plug the pac harness into the stock amp where those plugs were. Super simple. The pac harness has wires coming off of it for each speaker (which are connected to the existing / factory wiring) You connect those to your aftermarket amp/dsp, and no need to run any wiring to doors, etc. you only need to do a tone test to make sure which wire goes to what speaker. I actually have a diagram already done, of the channels. when you are ready to get started, let me know and I’ll post it, or message it to you. Theres not room under the seat with the stock amp. I mounted mine to the back wall, ran speed wire between the pac harness and the dsp/amp to connect the speaker wires.
 

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pac harness… there are three plugs going into the stock amp (two 22 pin, and one 10 pin). You unplug those, connect them to the pac harness, then plug the pac harness into the stock amp where those plugs were. Super simple. The pac harness has wires coming off of it for each speaker (which are connected to the existing / factory wiring) You connect those to your aftermarket amp/dsp, and no need to run any wiring to doors, etc. you only need to do a tone test to make sure which wire goes to what speaker. I actually have a diagram already done, of the channels. when you are ready to get started, let me know and I’ll post it, or message it to you. Theres not room under the seat with the stock amp. I mounted mine to the back wall, ran speed wire between the pac harness and the dsp/amp to connect the speaker wires.
That'd save a bunch of time. Please send it over via message or post here. Thanks!
 

Brunzca

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That'd save a bunch of time. Please send it over via message or post here. Thanks!
I think this is the one… just double check at least a couple when you are setting up to be sure.. a 9-volt battery will tell you what speaker each wire is connected to
 

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