Recommended vs REQUIRED oil spec

[tjsadler]

I see a lot of discussion about the oil specs for the Ecodiesel. I tend to read a research a lot and in everything I read one question kept popping into my head. Before everyone gets completely up in arms please know that I'm asking a legitimate question based on printed material from FCA and not trying to start anything. I'm genuinely interested in what y'all are thinking on this.

The 2020 1500 Owners Manual states "We recommend you use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar that meets FCA Material Standard MS-12991 and the API SN engine oil category is required."

Given the fact that 4,000 lawyers probably reviewed that before it was put into print/digital form I find it interesting that they recommend FCA MS-12991 but only require API SN. That being the case it would seem that any oil that meets API SN meets the minimum requirements. They've worded it in an interesting fashion using and in the middle of that sentence but it isn't saying MS-12991 and API SN are required. It's saying we recommend MS-12991 and require API SN.

My 2021 is on order but I'm interested to know why everyone is so worried about MS-12991 when it isn't even a requirement from FCA. Words are important. Oil changes, according to the manual, are required every 10,000 miles so if you skip that and have a problem they can say "sorry but you didn't follow the required maintenance" and you're out of luck. If it said oil changes were only recommended every 10k then that would be a different thing entirely. I'm not saying I won't buy the MS-12991 but it's a pretty major difference between required and recommended. Recommended means "we have a marketing agreement with the parent company that makes this and we suggest you use it".

 

[Aseras]

Use the manual that came with your truck until you get a recall or replacement manual from FCA. Don't believe random people on the internet. FCA needs better lawyers if they are going to use run on sentences. Its the same with GM and oxford commas. Grammar in 2020 is a poor hill to die on but they seem to like it.

 

[tjsadler]

I'm not trying to point out an error in the manual. That is from the currently downloadable e-manual from the official Mopar site. I'm saying there's a lot of stressing over which oils we HAVE to use but it would seem from simply reading the manual that the REQUIREMENT is API-SN which a ton of easily available oils have, like Mobil 1 for instance.

 

[SpeedyV]

I'm not trying to point out an error in the manual. That is from the currently downloadable e-manual from the official Mopar site. I'm saying there's a lot of stressing over which oils we HAVE to use but it would seem from simply reading the manual that the REQUIREMENT is API-SN which a ton of easily available oils have, like Mobil 1 for instance.

On page 491 (in my copy): “...the manufacturer only recommends engine oils that are API Certified and meet the requirements of FCA Material Standard MS-6395.”

On page 492: “Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used.” Note that this paragraph refers to the Chrysler spec (not API) referenced in the previous paragraph on the same page.

It doesn’t actually say “required” anywhere for API. But it says “only recommends” for both API and Chrysler specs, and it says oils that do not meet MS-6395 “should not be used”.

Mobil 1, as an example, doesn’t have this certification. This doesn’t mean it can’t meet it, but Mobil has not gone to the trouble of certifying it. In the end, as I don’t want to give FCA any excuse not to honor my lifetime warranty, I’ll stick with PUP.

 

[tjsadler]

So in your case you have the Hemi which is less of a controversy. I should have specified that I was talking about the Ecodiesel. For the Ecodiesel I find this on page 379:
Diesel Engine Oil Selection For best performance and maximum protection under all types of operating conditions, the manufacturer recommends engine oils that meet the requirements of FCA Material Standard MS-12991, and that are API SN certified and meet the requirements of FCA LLC.
Page 380:
We recommend you use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar that meets FCA Material Standard MS-12991 and the API SN engine oil category is required.
Page 437:
We recommend you use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar that meets FCA Material Standard MS-12991 and the API SN engine oil category is required.

Those pages are from the online pdf e-manual from their website and are the only references to MS-12991 in the whole document.

My point is just that even in their printed materials the only requirement is for API SN. They simply recommend MS-12991. Based on that I can't imagine they'd ever be able to win a warranty applicability argument over oil usage as long as you could document that you always used one that met their own requirements, API SN. Now, whether or not MS-12991 is magically better for the engine than any other quality synthetic is a different argument but I seriously doubt there's much difference between their branded Pennzoil and something meeting API-SN from Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, etc...

This is really just a thought experiment since I don't even have my truck yet and as long as I can readily obtain the MS-12991 spec oil or bulk buy coupons for dealership oil changes I'll probably use it. I just found it interesting that there are a lot of threads on this and other forums about the required oil being expensive and hard to find when it isn't actually required, just recommended.

 

[SpeedyV]

The truth is that if you change your oil regularly with just about any modern oil, it is very unlikely that you will ever experience an oil-related failure.

That said, many of us look at this as “cheap insurance”.

 

[WXman]

Cheap insurance is the best way to put it. If you use a MS-12991 oil and keep good records, it's EXTREMELY unlikely you'll ever have a warranty claim denial based upon maintenance.

On the other hand, if you don't use MS-12991 oil and you have a blown engine then you open up the possibility that FCA could say no and then you'd have to fight a multi-billion dollar corporation in court, which would suck.

I'd rather spend the extra $15 per oil cycle to avoid that possibility.

 

[J-Cooz]

What WXman said. There's a lot of oils that meet the ms12991 spec so it's really not a problem. They aren't any more expensive than other oils

 

[NewLove]

What WXman said. There's a lot of oils that meet the ms12991 spec so it's really not a problem. They aren't any more expensive than other oils

Don’t be too sure about that. Have you tried to google MS-12991 oil?


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[Hydroblueguy]

I see a lot of discussion about the oil specs for the Ecodiesel. I tend to read a research a lot and in everything I read one question kept popping into my head. Before everyone gets completely up in arms please know that I'm asking a legitimate question based on printed material from FCA and not trying to start anything. I'm genuinely interested in what y'all are thinking on this.

The 2020 1500 Owners Manual states "We recommend you use 5W-40 synthetic engine oil such as Mopar that meets FCA Material Standard MS-12991 and the API SN engine oil category is required."

Given the fact that 4,000 lawyers probably reviewed that before it was put into print/digital form I find it interesting that they recommend FCA MS-12991 but only require API SN. That being the case it would seem that any oil that meets API SN meets the minimum requirements. They've worded it in an interesting fashion using and in the middle of that sentence but it isn't saying MS-12991 and API SN are required. It's saying we recommend MS-12991 and require API SN.

My 2021 is on order but I'm interested to know why everyone is so worried about MS-12991 when it isn't even a requirement from FCA. Words are important. Oil changes, according to the manual, are required every 10,000 miles so if you skip that and have a problem they can say "sorry but you didn't follow the required maintenance" and you're out of luck. If it said oil changes were only recommended every 10k then that would be a different thing entirely. I'm not saying I won't buy the MS-12991 but it's a pretty major difference between required and recommended. Recommended means "we have a marketing agreement with the parent company that makes this and we suggest you use it".

I don’t think anyone knows what oil is supposed to go into the new hemi. Dealers just put in whatever they want anyway!

 

[J-Cooz]

Don’t be too sure about that. Have you tried to google MS-12991 oil?


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Yes. I have many options readily available in Canada. I got 10 quarts for $50 for my first oil change.

 

[WXman]

Don’t be too sure about that. Have you tried to google MS-12991 oil?


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I've got a jug of Valvoline and a jug of Motul in the garage. Both have MS-12991 stamped on them. Both worked out to around $6.50 per quart. Both were ordered with two clicks of the mouse on Amazon.com.

 

[Aseras]

Cheap insurance is the best way to put it. If you use a MS-12991 oil and keep good records, it's EXTREMELY unlikely you'll ever have a warranty claim denial based upon maintenance.

On the other hand, if you don't use MS-12991 oil and you have a blown engine then you open up the possibility that FCA could say no and then you'd have to fight a multi-billion dollar corporation in court, which would suck.

I'd rather spend the extra $15 per oil cycle to avoid that possibility.

How many of your receipts say the oil you used was ms-12991?

 

[WXman]

How many of your receipts say the oil you used was ms-12991?

Receipts? Zero.

But I kept the bottles, and the bottles are all stamped. So one can easily look at the receipt, match up brand and item number, and put 2+2 together.

 

[J-Cooz]

How many of your receipts say the oil you used was ms-12991?

No receipt even from the dealer is going to say ms12991 on it...so that's a null point.

There's a giant list of oils meeting Ms12991 spec. It's not difficult to find one nor is a dealer going to deny you if you use any of them.

 

[NewLove]

No receipt even from the dealer is going to say ms12991 on it...so that's a null point.

There's a giant list of oils meeting Ms12991 spec. It's not difficult to find one nor is a dealer going to deny you if you use any of them.

I’m having a hard time finding one that says it on the bottle


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[c3k]

The soot requirement is an issue for VW diesels. FWIW. In order not to violate the terms of the warranty wrt to the DPF specifically (and the rest of the engine by extension), oils need to meet a specific VW criteria, VW507.00. Obviously, they ALSO need to meet the API requirement, too. (This criteria is hard to find. Mobil 1 ESP meets it. A lot of folks use T4200 (or 4600?) by Liqui Moli, a German brand. It's a pita to find oils that explicitly state they comply with the VW 507.00 requirement.)

Diesels (more appropriately, modern Diesel's emissions systems) put requirements on oils beyond lubricating internal parts.

I don't own an Ecodiesel...but it's on my short list. Hence, my interest.

(Edited to add: going by memory on the number of the VW spec and the Liqui Moli oil type.)

 

[tjsadler]

I think you're right on the VW specs. I had a Passat TDI. Most profitable car purchase ever thanks to dieselgate. I believe that VW required the 507.00 or whatever spec. I always ordered the LiquiMoly oil and filter kit online for it. It would be interesting to go back and read the VW manual to see whether it was required or just recommended. I just think it's interesting that FCA requires API SN but only recommends the MS-12991 which makes me think it's basically just a marketing deal with Shell/Pennzoil and not really any kind of superior oil package.

Edit: Here's the info from a VW manual...
Engine oil specifications ¤Please first read and note the introductory information and heed the WARNINGS The engine oil used must conform to exact specifications. Using the proper engine oil is important for the functionality and service life of the engine. Your engine was factory-filled with a high-quality multi-grade oil which can usually be used throughout the entire year.

So VW was unambiguously stating that their 507.00 spec MUST be used whereas FCA says API SN must be used and they recommend MS-12991

 

[Rossum]

Ze Germans, zey are very precise in zeir requirements, und you vill follow zem, or else!

Spoiler

My current diesel is a 2015 Touareg TDI.

 

[md-lucky]

What timing.

Decided to do my first oil change this weekend. At my 4th stop, I finally found the Pennzoil Euro 5/40 and it was the only oil I could find stamped MS-12991.

Problem was: they had one, single quart on the rack. I went up to the counter and asked if they were getting any more and the parts guy laughed and said "oh yeah, we have cases and cases in the back. The Dodge dealer buys so much of this stuff. Say it's required for warranty."

Now that's just an anecdotal story from some guy on the internet, but let me tell you... after hearing that from some random guy that has zero skin in the game sitting behind a parts counter, I'm going to stick with putting only MS-12991 in my pickup... clearly the local dealer has made their decision and I wouldn't want to be on the other end of a claim doing something different from what they have decided.